No, it isn't a crime, but it does show an unwillingness to learn from all things around you. Even if I'm wrong, you can at least learn that 'such and such view is wrong' from me.

I'd be curious to hear about your personal experiences with God, and why you eventually discredited them as a trick of the mind. What was the experience? What made you change your mind and lose faith in the experience as being genuine? You understand that this is where faith in oneself and one's sense comes in, don't you? If you cannot have faith and trust in your own personal experiences...then who can you trust?

Think of it this way; what if you asked me what it was like to go bungie jumping, because I had been bungie jumping before and you had not? I could describe the exhiliration I felt as I plummeted towards the ground, the whipping feeling of the wind against my face and the rest of my body, and I could even go into detail about the sharp pull as I reached the end of my cord and was snapped back into the air at high speed...but unless you went out and went bungie jumping yourself, would you ever truly understand what it was like to do it? No, of course not.

God and faith is personal in that manner. If I had a perfect memory, and I could recite to you each and every experience with God I ever had; if I could describe in absolutely perfect detail what my faith was like; if I could explain to you the whole of the Bible as it is meant to be taken point for point...would you ever truly understand until you had gone out and experienced these things for yourself?

No, you would not.

(September 11, 2010 at 9:06 pm)Watson Wrote: No, it isn't a crime, but it does show an unwillingness to learn from all things around you. Even if I'm wrong, you can at least learn that 'such and such view is wrong' from me.

I'd be curious to hear about your personal experiences with God, and why you eventually discredited them as a trick of the mind. What was the experience? What made you change your mind and lose faith in the experience as being genuine? You understand that this is where faith in oneself and one's sense comes in, don't you? If you cannot have faith and trust in your own personal experiences...then who can you trust?

Think of it this way; what if you asked me what it was like to go bungie jumping, because I had been bungie jumping before and you had not? I could describe the exhiliration I felt as I plummeted towards the ground, the whipping feeling of the wind against my face and the rest of my body, and I could even go into detail about the sharp pull as I reached the end of my cord and was snapped back into the air at high speed...but unless you went out and went bungie jumping yourself, would you ever truly understand what it was like to do it? No, of course not.

God and faith is personal in that manner. If I had a perfect memory, and I could recite to you each and every experience with God I ever had; if I could describe in absolutely perfect detail what my faith was like; if I could explain to you the whole of the Bible as it is meant to be taken point for point...would you ever truly understand until you had gone out and experienced these things for yourself?

No, you would not.

I suppose

My experience was I "felt" he was there protecting me because I would pray ti him and I felt better. It was me tricking myself because that was what I was taught. Pray to God for help and you will get that help.

But why exactly do you not trust that inner feeling of protection?

(September 11, 2010 at 9:12 pm)Watson Wrote: But why exactly do you not trust that inner feeling of protection?

It was my maneuver to feel protected. If I was told Satan would protect me, I would have prayed to him. Also, when I look back at it, I had no reason to believe that God was there. Yes, I like to have some evidence.

Isn't it possible, though, that if you were told Satan would protect you and you had no real understanding of Satan, that refering to God as 'Satan' would still have been praying to God, simply under a different name?

Why did you have no reason to believe God was there? How would you know if He was or not? Obviously, looking back, you wont perceive Him as having been there because you are an atheist now. But is it possible that He might have been there, and you simply did/do not recognize/remember Him?

And again, why is that inner feeling of peace not evidence enough? Why do you find it to be un-trustworthy?

(Wow, suddenly I'm the one asking the questions...weird. o.O)

(September 11, 2010 at 9:19 pm)Watson Wrote: Isn't it possible, though, that if you were told Satan would protect you and you had no real understanding of Satan, that refering to God as 'Satan' would still have been praying to God, simply under a different name?

Why did you have no reason to believe God was there? How would you know if He was or not? Obviously, looking back, you wont perceive Him as having been there because you are an atheist now. But is it possible that He might have been there, and you simply did/do not recognize/remember Him?

And again, why is that inner feeling of peace not evidence enough? Why do you find it to be un-trustworthy?

(Wow, suddenly I'm the one asking the questions...weird. o.O)

It's untrustworthy because the human brain is complex and does shit even modern technology can not understand. I sometimes see monsters in the dark. It's my mind not real monsters just because "I think" there are monsters there. I know it's only my mind because We can understand our mind plays tricks on us like that. A feeling of peace does not prove anything. Children feel safe when they hug their stuffed animals because they feel protected. God was my stuffed animal. A pawn for my feelings to use.

Then how can you trust other people and their observations of the world? Science, for instance?

(September 11, 2010 at 9:30 pm)Watson Wrote: Then how can you trust other people and their observations of the world? Science, for instance?

Science is not based on feelings It's based on evidence and theories that are have been and are being tested etc... If a scientist is proven wrong, he is wrong and his theories have no use other than proving something is wrong. If he is correct he is correct. He must also have evidence/proof.

Zeus.. I would agree that your peaceful feelings alone from prayer were were most likely self-justification from cognitive dissonance. Typically, on the rare occasion I ask for guidance or peace, I do get a sense of peace but I also get an insight or an opportunity or a synchronistic event almost immediately with that peace. If I experience what you're describing, I'd probably feel similarly.

Quote:Zeus.. I would agree that your peaceful feelings alone from prayer were were most likely self-justification from cognitive dissonance. Typically, on the rare occasion I ask for guidance or peace, I do get a sense of peace but I also get an insight or an opportunity or a synchronistic event almost immediately with that peace. If I experience what you're describing, I'd probably feel similarly.

Are we just trying to explain something away, which is unexplainable?

I prayed a few weeks and I felt this weird sense of peace come over me, I never asked for it, all I did was ask for help. Perhaps it is God connecting with us immaterially...