(April 30, 2015 at 11:24 pm)Polaris Wrote: It's not any different without religion with politicians in mind. They always find something to use to advance their own ambitions.

While I agree that politicians will grasp at any lever in order to move the masses, the fact is that because of its dogmatic, unquestionable aura, when a politician wraps a political initiative in religious clothing, it gives that initiative more staying power, because believers will be less likely to question it.

Religion and politics should never mix.  

(May 1, 2015 at 10:19 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Religion and politics should never mix.  

Agreed but the problem is that religion IS politics, at least it is so with every religion that I'm familiar with. 

Religion prescribes codes of conduct and ways of life. It is wrapped into a society's social network and often forms (or at least is a large part of) its tribal identity. It makes claims about the forces that shape our reality around us, forces which must somehow be petitioned and appeased. 

How can religion be expected to do anything else but try to worm its way into politics? Eternal vigilance is all that keeps it out. 

(May 1, 2015 at 10:32 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(May 1, 2015 at 10:19 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Religion and politics should never mix.  

Agreed but the problem is that religion IS politics, at least it is so with every religion that I'm familiar with. 

Religion prescribes codes of conduct and ways of life. It is wrapped into a society's social network and often forms (or at least is a large part of) its tribal identity. It makes claims about the forces that shape our reality around us, forces which must somehow be petitioned and appeased. 

How can religion be expected to do anything else but try to worm its way into politics? Eternal vigilance is all that keeps it out. 

Making political decisions on a religious basis is foolish. That was my point.

I think harking back to Westphalia and the church as an institution certainly plays its part, but in a modern context I think we need to look towards modern causes.

Sexual revolution, apathy, cohort effect. The last two are the repeating pattern, the first was one of the predominant triggers - women taking control over their sexual health, and people generally not finding the stories of the church convincing mixed with a general sense of no fucks given either way. Conservatism went out of vogue and only now is the Anglican Church catching up. Apathy has been the death of the church in England and Wales, and will see some sects (eg - Methodism) go extinct within the next couple of decades.

(May 1, 2015 at 12:16 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: Sexual revolution, apathy, cohort effect. The last two are the repeating pattern, the first was one of the predominant triggers - women taking control over their sexual health, and people generally not finding the stories of the church convincing mixed with a general sense of no fucks given either way. Conservatism went out of vogue and only now is the Anglican Church catching up. Apathy has been the death of the church in England and Wales, and will see some sects (eg - Methodism) go extinct within the next couple of decades.

Yeah, but that started way earlier. The major european breakpoint was the end of WWI, when people were fed up with authority and had an insatiable hunger for life. You may not forget that the german emperor, similar to his english cousins, was head of church. That's also difference between Europe and the States. State sponsored religion. Funny as that may sound, the non establishment clause in the American constitution may be the main reason for every crackpot brand of christianity running rampant. In Europe, people grew apathetic towards authority that led them into two world wars. And by association, they grew apathetic towards the churches.

Same as Hitchens I see the main reason for religion growing less important in the two wars. But as opposed to Hitchens, I don't think it's because god wasn't there. It has much more to do with authority losing credibility. And churches were supposed to represent the ultimate authority. Another major difference to the States.

Yup, can't disagree. I'm still a diseatabliahmentarian by default, but I recognise the impact the establishment has had on turning people apathetic towards religious institutions.

The church in Britain is given the ultimate insult; it's ignored. NI is a different matter, however.

Professor plumb, in the library with the science book.

What killed christianity? The christians.

Start with the revivalism movement in the '20s, they introduced a wedge into their own ranks polarizing themselves with a growing battle developing between the batshit tin-pot wannabe dictators and the cucumber sandwich munchers.
Ultimately the religious groups are inherently anachronistic forever harking back to a fantasy past that never actually happened and locking themselves into a war with the society from which they are attempting to gather recruits.
In particular with the revivalists they promote a literalism which is at odds with observed reality. As time goes on society develops and the churchgoers have been left behind railing at the inequity of a society that simply doesn't hold their views to be true.

Lack of the faintest hint of any evidence?

2000 years of bullshit arguments that wouldn't shake the resolve of a nervous gnat.