http://time.com/3843822/charlie-hebdo-pe...d-protest/

http://reason.com/blog/2015/05/01/145-in...venxw:53Sy 

Quote:To the section of the French population that is already marginalized, embattled, and victimized, a population that is shaped by the legacy of France's various colonial enterprises, and that contains a large percentage of devout Muslims, Charlie Hebdo's cartoons of the Prophet must be seen as being intended to cause further humiliation and suffering.

Recently, 145 ''intellectual' writers signed a letter saying that PEN should not honor Charlie Hebdo for it's bravery in standing up for freedom of expression. It literally says that Islam as a belief system should not be mocked because ethnic minorities follow the religion. As if Islam deserves special tolerance

The letter is of course, utterly embarassing and PEN will continue to honor Charlie Hebdo. 

But this brings me to ask, even if we were to refrain from criticizing Islam in the West because minorities follow it, then where can it be criticized? 

Like criticizing and mocking Islam would work soooo well in a country where Muslims are the majority? Yeah, no. It's simply too hard to even criticize Islam in Muslim majority nations, let alone mock it - those who do are brutally punished, via state law. 

It's why ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali criticize Islam in the West. I'm getting sick and tired of people saying that ''Islamophobia'' phrase whenever someone criticizes Islam. If criticizing Islam should not be allowed because minorities follow it (and thus, they have some special right) - then Islam cannot be criticized anywhere in the world. 

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You know, the Right-Wing of politics always get pissed off when Christianity is criticized. But lately, it seems to be the hardcore Left who get pissed off when Islam is criticized.

Wasn't it Marx who said religion is the ''opium of the people''?

It's my position that Islam can't moan about what we say about their religion as long as they are carrying around a book which states very clearly over and over again that we deserve a "fiery doom" just for not submitting. How much more offensive can it be? Not only that, they say it was inspired by god.

Well fuck that. You want to moan about humorous cartoons, or us saying the Quran is a load of shit? Which is more offensive? Which is most likely to inspire hateful action?

To make it clear this is not a simple tu quoque, we are discussing, criticising and mocking ideas. Their book advocates violent action against us and tells us what we deserve, and it's not good.

If I begin every sentence with, "This is inspired by my god the FSM..." can I say whatever I want including death threats?

I say no religion ever has any right to complain about anything said by anyone, including those nominally of that religion but do not fully toe whatever line self-appointed arbiter of orthodoxy say they should toe, about itself.

You are a religion, for fuck sake, you exist because you have been allowed to bullshit and make up bullshit self justifying mythologies, and in the process inevitably defame some people, and you complain what is said about you?

(May 2, 2015 at 6:39 am)TheMessiah Wrote: It's why ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali criticize Islam in the West. I'm getting sick and tired of people saying that ''Islamophobia'' phrase whenever someone criticizes Islam. If criticizing Islam should not be allowed because minorities follow it (and thus, they have some special right) - then Islam cannot be criticized anywhere in the world. 

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That would be because all too many don't make that distinction between Islam and muslim. Ask me if Islam is a shitty religion and my answer would be a resounding yes. But it's no better or worse than the other two. The only difference being that Western society and legislation prevents radical Christianity and judaism to act on their vile impulses. But especially in Europe there are quite a lot of parties changing some political dime on inciting general suspicion against anyone even appearing to be muslim. And we have the news networks and papers to go along with that. Whenever a precious Westerner is killed in one of the many conflict zones of the Middle East, it's splashed all over the front pages. The thousands of muslims being killed by their radical brethren don't even make it to page five.

So yes, radical Islam has to be critizised, but not using the UKIP method to name only one out of many.

(May 2, 2015 at 7:14 am)abaris Wrote:

(May 2, 2015 at 6:39 am)TheMessiah Wrote: It's why ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali criticize Islam in the West. I'm getting sick and tired of people saying that ''Islamophobia'' phrase whenever someone criticizes Islam. If criticizing Islam should not be allowed because minorities follow it (and thus, they have some special right) - then Islam cannot be criticized anywhere in the world. 

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That would be because all too many don't make that distinction between Islam and muslim. Ask me if Islam is a shitty religion and my answer would be a resounding yes. But it's no better or worse than the other two. The only difference being that Western society and legislation prevents radical Christianity and judaism to act on their vile impulses. But especially in Europe there are quite a lot of parties changing some political dime on inciting general suspicion against anyone even appearing to be muslim. And we have the news networks and papers to go along with that. Whenever a precious Westerner is killed in one of the many conflict zones of the Middle East, it's splashed all over the front pages. The thousands of muslims being killed by their radical brethren don't even make it to page five.

So yes, radical Islam has to be critizised, but not using the UKIP method to name only one out of many.

I agree - which is what Charlie Hebdo did, there's a difference between bigotry towards Muslims as people and Islam as a belief system. They didn't demonize an entire group; just the founders of that belief system. No different to when Jesus gets mocked. 

Mocking Islam, even as a belief system, is very hard to do in the West without getting labelled as an ''Islamophobe''.

Islam is evil.

Each religion is a bit like a tool, a swiss army knife, and each of its followers can use it in many different ways.

Islam and Christianity have more than the usual amount of cruel, bloodletting knives available on the tool thanks to their torture manuals. Secularism has kind of put safety locks on a lot of the blades of christianity.

Can I write a FSM book, and part of it says, "People who don't believe in FSM all deserve to be killed and then their souls tortured forever afterwards"? Would that be OK? Or is it only old made-up books which are allowed to include such things?

Can someone explain to me how 1.6 billion people are a minority?

First things first:

Quote:Wasn't it Marx who said religion is the ''opium of the people''?

Lol dude, don't confuse liberal-capitalist leftists with actual Marxists/communists/socialists - Obviously most parties in Europe that label themselves as socialists are not actually anti-capitalists so they're just some kind of liberal-capitalists who want to reform economic oppression. Being leftist is not the same as being a Marxist - If it were that way, no religion would be tolerated.

Now to your topic:

I agree. I try to find a middle ground between labelling all Muslims as terrorists and calling Islamophobic to anyone who dares criticize Islam. I do think that some people who criticize Islam are naively more focused on saying "It is so violent etc etc" instead of proposing measures of secularism - Something we do need. I see no reason to give special treatment to Islam compared to Christianity or Judaism - But can you guess what would happen if you were to criticize Judaism?

Quote:Can someone explain to me how 1.6 billion people are a minority?

Obviously not but in France they are a minority.

(May 2, 2015 at 7:17 am)TheMessiah Wrote: Mocking Islam, even as a belief system, is very hard to do in the West without getting labelled as an ''Islamophobe''.

I've never really understood why that term is considered a negative: you mean I shouldn't be afraid of a group that, with some regularity, murders anybody who disagrees with them vocally?

Right. Islam is basically the oral myth that the Quran and possibly the Hadiths are divinely inspired and should be followed. It's a myth that obviously works, and people are prepared to follow these books to greater or lesser degrees. They contain many references to killing people who don't submit.

That is fucking scary. I wouldn't call it irrational.