Let's say the Mormon poobahs finally tire of all the bullshit and folderol, and admit Joseph Smith pulled a fast one and the entire edifice of LDS is built upon the mass gullibility of some really, really flawed people.

Would they be subject for criminal prosecution for persisting in their scam for decades after it became obvious to them they were furthering a criminal enterprise ??

Also, we all know human nature well enough to realize even if all the poobahs fess up, there might yet be a willing majority of Mormons that do not care, and desire to persist in their error.

What do we do with them ?

*raises hand* throw them in a lake of fire?

Load them in a rocket and fire them towards Planet Kolob.

Invade Salt Lake City, legalize marijuana in Utah, and enjoy those ski resorts.

(May 5, 2015 at 11:30 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Let's say the Mormon poobahs finally tire of all the bullshit and folderol, and admit Joseph Smith pulled a fast one and the entire edifice of LDS is built upon the mass gullibility of some really, really flawed people.

Would they be subject for criminal prosecution for persisting in their scam for decades after it became obvious to them they were furthering a criminal enterprise ??

Well, I strongly doubt they would be prosecuted, as to whether they could be prosecuted, that's a very interesting and tricky question.  Religious leaders have been prosecuted for embezzling donated funds.  But I've never heard of one being prosecuted for fraud on the grounds that he didn't believe what he was preaching.  I suspect a huge separation of church and state problem there. Even in the case of a faked miracle like those weeping statues, the church hasn't been prosecuted for fraud the way it certainly would have been if it were an inventor claiming perpetual motion machine while superstitiously spinning it under the table with his toes. After all, every religion makes unprovable, and often impossible claims.  And many pastors leave the faith. Presumably they all went through a period where they preached something they didn't believe.

(May 5, 2015 at 11:30 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Also, we all know human nature well enough to realize even if all the poobahs fess up, there might yet be a willing majority of Mormons that do not care, and desire to persist in their error.

I'm very sure, human nature being what it is that there would indeed be such a group of Mormons.  And there's nothing to do with them, except roll your eyes.  It would be no different than the Christians who believe the earth is 6000 years old.

(May 5, 2015 at 11:30 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Let's say the Mormon poobahs finally tire of all the bullshit and folderol, and admit Joseph Smith pulled a fast one and the entire edifice of LDS is built upon the mass gullibility of some really, really flawed people.

Would they be subject for criminal prosecution for persisting in their scam for decades after it became obvious to them they were furthering a criminal enterprise ??
[...]

Nothing would change. The next day new Mormon leaders would denounce the old ones as possessed by Satan, or what-not, deny Joseph Smith having been a fraudster and an adulterer and assure their distressed flock that their beliefs are definitely not a result of a blatant scam. Any attempts to prosecute the organization would most likely be blocked, by means of political influence and everything would go on as usual, with new boss - same as the old boss.

Mormon society is a way of life for millions of people - they don't give a damn whether the stories of JS were true or not. They're attached to their culture - whatever its origin may happen to be.

 In fact - trying to prove any large religion false is a futile effort, because it's too big of a business, for everyone to just let it fail. 


Scientology - on the other hand - they're pretty low on numbers and generally hated by virtually everyone. If David "F***face" Miscavige publicly announced scientology to be a scam - and admitted to the criminal way their enterprise received tax-exempt status, that would be like - the happiest day on Earth. World-wide media and police would just tear them to shreds and the whole organization would just disappear overnight (although dumb people would probably still read "Dianetics"). One can dream...

But it's too late for Mormons. They'll just have to die out slowly, like other religions, thanks to science education, and technological progress. 

It seems like a fine line between fraud, and coming up with some garbage religion which then earns you money. If it didn't have the religious element, it would probably be straightforward fraud. I'm a bit tired of the idea that religion makes stuff OK.

-well, it makes things difficult to prosecute.....not quite the same as "ok"  

People -do- get charged with crimes which are consequences of their duties-to-faith, or duties of social convention in faith.

(There would, imo, likely be -some- fraud charges if they went belly up like that, nothing to do with the tenets of the faith, only the operation of the profiting body...lol)

(May 5, 2015 at 11:30 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Let's say the Mormon poobahs finally tire of all the bullshit and folderol, and admit Joseph Smith pulled a fast one and the entire edifice of LDS is built upon the mass gullibility of some really, really flawed people.

Would they be subject for criminal prosecution for persisting in their scam for decades after it became obvious to them they were furthering a criminal enterprise ??

Unless it could be definitively proven that the LDS leaders were embezzling, were demonstrably (provably in a court) committing some kind of con in order to defraud members, or something I doubt there would be any grounds upon which you could level a court case at them.

If they're a non-profit and they could be demonstrated to be conducting for-profit ventures (*ahem* City Creek Mall) there might be something there, but you'd have to prove that the development was paid for by the church and that the revenue generated went into church coffers and demonstrate some kind of corruption.

But that opens up a huge can of worms for court cases against religious institutions all over the country which means a lot of people have a lot of vested interest in keeping a lid on those sorts of cases.

Quote:Also, we all know human nature well enough to realize even if all the poobahs fess up, there might yet be a willing majority of Mormons that do not care, and desire to persist in their error.

Knowing something about the Mormon propensity for revisionism, they'd probably ex all the General Authorities who make such confessions, install new, "true" GAs and claim that they "knew all along" that the exed GAs were crooked (they have the spirit of discernment, after all) or write it off as "our leaders are human, they make mistakes just like everyone" and carry on with the new GAs as if nothing ever happened.

The ones who are in too deep would just kick him/them out claiming they were a random crazy.

Mmmm...polygamy. Would rather be kicked in the teeth