I got into a discussion with a christian friend of mine about faith. He claims he knows atheist that have lucky underwear, and believe it actually helps.

He said: "okay say 2 people are going into a war. One guy wears he's 'lucky scarf' around his right arm, the other guy kissing a cross for good fortune. How are those not the same thing?"

I said because the one with the scarf doesn't worship the scarf, he doesn't think that the scarf created the world, he doesn't think that the scarf will send him to eternal paradise if he wears it, etc. and that it wasn't magical. It only gives him confidence.

He then asked me to explain where the confidence comes from, and I had a hard time explaining it because to me there was really nothing else to say.

so I need suggestions. What is the difference between faith in god and lucky underwear? And how do I explain the confidence part?

It brings up a good point, and when it boils down to it, I think there is only a difference of degrees. True, he doesn't worship the scarf, but if he actually is attributing some supernatural quality (luckiness) to it, then I think they are beliefs of the same nature. For example, would a person very relaxed in their religious beliefs be on the same level as someone who truly deeply believed that he had a lucky scarf?

Of course, you also have to ask if this person actually does believe that the scarf is lucky. For example, anytime I run a yellow light I kiss the my hand and touch the roof of my car for "good luck," or to stave away misfortune. Do I actually believe it helps? No, of course not. It doesn't do a thing. Does the lucky-scarf wearer feel the same about his scarf? This helps to clarify the difference between a lucky scarf and believing that a loving God is watching you, but how far can you take that difference? In this case, it seems that the only feature separating the two is strength of belief. So I actually would have to side with your christian friend, assuming that the scarf-ed one actually believes it brings him luck.

I come back to, though, the difference between believing and truly believing. Do these atheists your friend talks about actually believe that their underwear is lucky? I doubt it.

Hes atheist, not naturalist. Being an atheist does not mean that you do not beleive in luck, karma, charms, magic, or pink fuzzy unicorns. Only that you don't buy theistic claims.

The man with the lucky scarf, if he truly does beleive it brings him luck, beleives that luck exists. He might not beleive in god but, plenty of buddists beleive in karma and not a god. Nor does he expect anything else of that scarf, it is not sentient, talking to it will not provide him more luck. It is simply something he has attributed luck to.

It's also very likely that he doesn't seriously beleive in good luck coming from the scarf, it's a habbit similar to correcting your glasses when you think, even though they are already in the right place. theres endless lists of things humans do for little to no reason and we just call it a charm or habit.

for example, theres two light switches by my door, one for the stairs one for the hall, both lights have a second switch that controls them. I try to keep it so that if both lights are on, both of MY switches are up, instead of one switch up and one switch down. for no real reason I just like things to be ordered, just as some people like to place their confidence in an object that cannot fail them.

Perhaps the scarf has some meaning to him and simply gives him comfort and security in much the same way that a 'blanky' does for a child.

As Niels Bohr said when someone asked him why he had a lucky horseshoe and if he believed it gave him good luck..

“I believe no such thing, my good friend. Not at all. I am scarcely likely to believe in such foolish nonsense. However, I am told that a horseshoe will bring you good luck whether you believe in it or not.”

I many atheists who are skeptical about everything tend to forget that some atheists actually believe stupid stuff too.

(January 25, 2009 at 6:05 am)Tiberius Wrote: I many atheists who are skeptical about everything tend to forget that some atheists actually believe stupid stuff too.

I know I do!!

(January 25, 2009 at 12:29 am)WWLD Wrote: I got into a discussion with a christian friend of mine about faith. He claims he knows atheist that have lucky underwear, and believe it actually helps.

He said: "okay say 2 people are going into a war. One guy wears he's 'lucky scarf' around his right arm, the other guy kissing a cross for good fortune. How are those not the same thing?"

I said because the one with the scarf doesn't worship the scarf, he doesn't think that the scarf created the world, he doesn't think that the scarf will send him to eternal paradise if he wears it, etc. and that it wasn't magical. It only gives him confidence.

He then asked me to explain where the confidence comes from, and I had a hard time explaining it because to me there was really nothing else to say.

so I need suggestions. What is the difference between faith in god and lucky underwear? And how do I explain the confidence part?

Are we to assume that the guy wearing the scarf is atheist and the cross-kisser is god-squad? If so then I would say that the atheist merely HOPES that wearing his lucky scarf might save his skin, whereas the believer, through the cross, PRAYS TO HIS IMAGINARY FRIEND IN THE SKY for a similar fate.
I think using the word " confidence " was wrong.
In the context I suggest it was about " hope ".

Why don't you just agree that both practices are silly, and a superstition is a superstition whether they involve a deity or not. Don't try to go and debate in degrees of superstition, just agree that any superstition is just as silly. Just because the atheist is an atheist doesn't mean you should defend his point of view.

(January 25, 2009 at 12:27 pm)bozo Wrote:

---

(January 25, 2009 at 12:29 am)WWLD Wrote: I got into a discussion with a christian friend of mine about faith. He claims he knows atheist that have lucky underwear, and believe it actually helps.

He said: "okay say 2 people are going into a war. One guy wears he's 'lucky scarf' around his right arm, the other guy kissing a cross for good fortune. How are those not the same thing?"

I said because the one with the scarf doesn't worship the scarf, he doesn't think that the scarf created the world, he doesn't think that the scarf will send him to eternal paradise if he wears it, etc. and that it wasn't magical. It only gives him confidence.

He then asked me to explain where the confidence comes from, and I had a hard time explaining it because to me there was really nothing else to say.

so I need suggestions. What is the difference between faith in god and lucky underwear? And how do I explain the confidence part?

---

Are we to assume that the guy wearing the scarf is atheist and the cross-kisser is god-squad? If so then I would say that the atheist merely HOPES that wearing his lucky scarf might save his skin, whereas the believer, through the cross, PRAYS TO HIS IMAGINARY FRIEND IN THE SKY for a similar fate.
I think using the word " confidence " was wrong.
In the context I suggest it was about " hope ".

yes assuming that the guy with the scarf is atheist and the cross kisser is god-squad.
hope may be a better word. or comfort. But whats the difference between hoping the scarf will bring him luck and the other guy hoping that God will save him?

(January 25, 2009 at 7:13 pm)WWLD Wrote: But whats the difference between hoping the scarf will bring him luck and the other guy hoping that God will save him?

There isn't a difference, its both the same.