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(June 6, 2015 at 7:51 am)Little Rik Wrote: You guys keep on saying that the consciousness is a product of the brain but when i ask for solid evidence it is you guys that come up with no evidence.
Some attempts have been made. In the 70's neurologist Benjamin Libet showed that neural activity preceded consciousness by about 500ms. We are nothing more than biochemical robots that that think we have a choice. There have not been a lot of studies on this since, because of the implications, i.e., we have no free will and that is a hard pill to swallow. It would seem that no one wants to prove we do not have free will and yet cannot prove we do or disprove the data from Libet's experiments.
Consciousness is nothing more than a byproduct of the brain.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
(June 6, 2015 at 7:51 am)Little Rik Wrote: [...]
You guys keep on saying that the consciousness is a product of the brain but when i ask for solid evidence it is you guys that come up with no evidence.
[...]
It's the simplest explanation, since you - or anyone else - can't provide any evidence to the contrary. And there's more than enough evidence that consciousness is closely connected to the biological functions of the brain. Damaging/altering the physical matter of the brain, or altering its chemical balance demonstrably and directly affects consciousness, in ways neurologists and psychiatrists are more and more familiar with.
Scientific progress is slow, but observable. There is no progress in magical thinking.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
(June 6, 2015 at 7:51 am)Little Rik Wrote: You guys keep on saying that the consciousness is a product of the brain but when i ask for solid evidence it is you guys that come up with no evidence.
Some attempts have been made. In the 70's neurologist Benjamin Libet showed that neural activity preceded consciousness by about 500ms. We are nothing more than biochemical robots that that think we have a choice. There have not been a lot of studies on this since, because of the implications, i.e., we have no free will and that is a hard pill to swallow. It would seem that no one wants to prove we do not have free will and yet cannot prove we do or disprove the data from Libet's experiments.
Consciousness is nothing more than a byproduct of the brain.
That is funny.
So the vehicle knows that the driver intend to start such a vehicle well before the driver.
Amazing IAT.
Ok. now let us stop the bullshit and star reasoning.
Let us start with the consciousness.
Is the consciousness what come straight in your mind or what come after the reasoning?
Or is all one and happen at the same time?
The iceberg is one but only the part above the water is visible unless you go below the water and see also the hidden part.
What Libet did?
Libet took in consideration the consciousness above the water for his experiment.
Now the question is........who start the action of thinking about something?
The outer consciousness or the hidden super conscious mind?
Nothing wrong with Libet experiment except that the chap instead of looking at the super conscious mind where
the action start he look at the outer conscious mind where the feeling of the initial action emerge after.
It can be less than a second or 1/10 of a sec or whatever it may be but nevertheless it is after it start in the
super conscious mind.
I already made the example of the onion to describe the mind.
The mind is one but there are several layers.
From the very core of the onion to the outer layer.
The mind works in the same way.
Not all the layers are the same.
The core is always much more powerful that the outer ones that is why the perception of the action
doesn't happen at the same time in all layers of the mind.
Capish?
June 7, 2015 at 7:12 am (This post was last modified: June 7, 2015 at 7:12 am by Homeless Nutter.)
Would you like some freshly cracked pepper on your word salad?
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
(June 6, 2015 at 7:51 am)Little Rik Wrote: [...]
You guys keep on saying that the consciousness is a product of the brain but when i ask for solid evidence it is you guys that come up with no evidence.
[...]
Quote:It's the simplest explanation, since you - or anyone else - can't provide any evidence to the contrary. And there's more than enough evidence that consciousness is closely connected to the biological functions of the brain. Damaging/altering the physical matter of the brain, or altering its chemical balance demonstrably and directly affects consciousness, in ways neurologists and psychiatrists are more and more familiar with. Scientific progress is slow, but observable. There is no progress in magical thinking.
You come few days later Hom.
We already went through this argument.
It is obvious that when the brain get damaged also the consciousness mind will suffer.
The two are connected.
In fact the consciousness is stuck into the brain until death occur so no wonder that
when the vehicle is not working the driver is stuck inside unable to do much.
(June 7, 2015 at 7:21 am)Little Rik Wrote: [...]The two are connected. In fact the consciousness is stuck into the brain until death occur so no wonder that when the vehicle is not working the driver is stuck inside unable to do much.
Or - a much simpler explanation - there is no "driver", for the existence of which you have no evidence whatsoever, as I've already stated . Plenty of vehicles can operate without drivers, with sufficient technology - if you need an infantile analogy to understand the point. No need for magic.
Google "Occam's Razor" some time.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
(June 6, 2015 at 7:20 am)Little Rik Wrote: You may think that brain and mind are one but it is only the fact that they are
INSEPARABLY connected (until death come) that they look like one.
Quote:It's a fact, is it? What is your evidence that it is a fact?
Thousand of NDEs tell us that when the brain is off the consciousness mind live on without it.
(June 6, 2015 at 7:20 am)Little Rik Wrote: Wait a minute.
First you argue that the matter CAN organize movements by itself and then you clearly say that it is because ....... The mind of a worm, simulated, and put inside a lego robot....
Where is the logic?
Quote:The mind inside the Lego robot is made of nothing but matter. Do you really need me to point this out to you? You claimed that matter couldn't move itself unless it was programmed to do so. The Lego robot wasn't programmed to move. All its movements are caused by a completely material brain, just as in a real worm. There is no separate mind or consciousness connected to the robot brain -- it's all matter. There is no programming and no immaterial mind there.
If that mind is not a mind what the hell it is?
(June 5, 2015 at 9:13 am)Little Rik Wrote: Consciousness is something abstract while the vehicle is something made of matter.
Have you ever seen the matter from moving by itself?
Yes, I have. And now, so have you.
Eh, are you speaking for me?
Yog, better you read properly what is written in that link.
It say...........All it has is a network of connections mimicking those in the brain of a worm. What this means? It means that they mimic a REACTION from the worm initial action. In other words it originate from the worm consciousness and therefore the worm consciousness way of mimicking is transferred into some medium or vehicle. Vehicle plus driver make the vehicle move so where is the big deal?
If you want to bring real evidence that the matter can do something by itself you shouldn't introduce in the matter anything
that mimic somebody action nor you should put some sort of energy into that vehicle or matter.
(June 7, 2015 at 7:21 am)Little Rik Wrote: [...]The two are connected. In fact the consciousness is stuck into the brain until death occur so no wonder that when the vehicle is not working the driver is stuck inside unable to do much.
Or - a much simpler explanation - there is no "driver", for the existence of which you have no evidence whatsoever, as I've already stated . Plenty of vehicles can operate without drivers, with sufficient technology - if you need an infantile analogy to understand the point. No need for magic.
Google "Occam's Razor" some time.
What a load of garbage.
Why........Plenty of vehicles can operate without drivers? Didn't you know that these vehicles have been programmed by a mind?
Mind + brain = action.
Driver + vehicle = movement.
You never thought about it Hom, didn't you?
(June 6, 2015 at 7:51 am)Little Rik Wrote: Good, let us see these testable claims and let us see where is the evidence that the consciousness mind die when the body die.
Quote:Let's try something: I'll explain it again, and you pretend that I'm talking very slowly, okay? You are asking the impossible. There is no way to disprove that the mind does anything except die upon the death of the body. But since we DO know that the mind is a function of the brain, it is reasonable to conclude this. In other words, it is YOUR claim that must be proven, and you have admitted that no one can prove it. So you have no standing for your claims. None. I at least can point to knowledge and understanding and make a logical inference. You simply make something up and demand that it be disproved. Your claims are meaningless. And outside of religious belief, you wouldn't pretend that such claims are anything but ridiculous.
So you do know......... that the mind is a function of the brain? And the evidence is?
You are NOW making a statement and a statement require SOLID EVIDENCE so please don't say that i need evidence when i say that is the other way around
but today i want to give you a present by not asking you for evidence knowing that you couldn't give any.
I instead put the issue in a different way.
None of us can give evidence at least in a physical way so let us work out what make more sense and what doesn't.
If the mind is a function of the brain it means that the brain is a lot more important than the mind, doesn't it Ton?
But wait a minute Ton.
Can something made of matter be more important than something abstract?
Try to think Ton and see if you can come up with something that make any sense.
Little Rik Wrote:That is bizarre.
You guys keep on saying that the consciousness is a product of the brain but when i ask for solid evidence it is you guys that come up with no evidence.
So who is boring?
Quote:You keep asking two different questions, and seem unable to keep up with the discussion. And that IS bizarre.
1- The mind is a function of the brain, as has been discussed here for a few pages. Aside from concepts that should be pretty obvious (the way we can use drugs to affect the mind by altering brain chemistry; the way we can alter the mind by affecting the physical structure of the brain) I have referred to books on research that show how different parts of the brain affect specific functions of the mind. So yes, I have provided evidence. More than enough to support the claim I have made. You reject this out of hand by introducing a completely different claim and pretending that it's the same thing (while producing no evidence of your own, I might add). It's not the same thing.
Sorry Ton but my analogy kill your believe.
Mind and brain are connected until death occur so it is OBVIOUS that one will affect the other.
Quote:2- The idea that the mind survives the death of the brain is not reasonable to hold based on the above facts. But it cannot be definitively disproved, in the same way that the Tooth Fairy and Leprechauns cannot be disproved. Nor can it be proved, as you have admitted. To believe in the concept of the mind that you describe is to accept any belief that we wish to be true regardless of what reality tells us. Your support for your claims so far is to make bad analogies and back them with further claims that you don't bother to support, while insisting that we prove a negative claim even as you admit that you cannot prove the positive claim.
What facts?
You got to be dreaming if you think that you provided any facts.
Yours are none but guessing based on no evidence as i explained above.
Quote:You constantly accuse us of having no evidence against something that you have no evidence FOR. Either you are simply unable to grasp the two separate points being made, or you are deliberately trying to conflate the two. The first implies that you are ignorant or confused. The latter implies that you're being disingenuous in order to avoid having to face the issue honestly. Neither is my problem, aside from the boredom I mentioned before.
There is enough evidence to say that until death occur mind and brain are connected in such a way that when one is in trouble the other will suffer as well.
This doesn't mean that the mind is a function of the brain.
(June 6, 2015 at 12:06 pm)IATIA Wrote: Some attempts have been made. In the 70's neurologist Benjamin Libet showed that neural activity preceded consciousness by about 500ms. We are nothing more than biochemical robots that that think we have a choice. There have not been a lot of studies on this since, because of the implications, i.e., we have no free will and that is a hard pill to swallow. It would seem that no one wants to prove we do not have free will and yet cannot prove we do or disprove the data from Libet's experiments.
Consciousness is nothing more than a byproduct of the brain.
That is funny.
So the vehicle knows that the driver intend to start such a vehicle well before the driver.
Amazing IAT.
Ok. now let us stop the bullshit and star reasoning.
Let us start with the consciousness.
Is the consciousness what come straight in your mind or what come after the reasoning?
Or is all one and happen at the same time?
The iceberg is one but only the part above the water is visible unless you go below the water and see also the hidden part.
What Libet did?
Libet took in consideration the consciousness above the water for his experiment.
Now the question is........who start the action of thinking about something?
The outer consciousness or the hidden super conscious mind?
Nothing wrong with Libet experiment except that the chap instead of looking at the super conscious mind where
the action start he look at the outer conscious mind where the feeling of the initial action emerge after.
It can be less than a second or 1/10 of a sec or whatever it may be but nevertheless it is after it start in the
super conscious mind.
I already made the example of the onion to describe the mind.
The mind is one but there are several layers.
From the very core of the onion to the outer layer.
The mind works in the same way.
Not all the layers are the same.
The core is always much more powerful that the outer ones that is why the perception of the action
doesn't happen at the same time in all layers of the mind.
Capish?
You asked for evidence and I provided it. Where is your evidence? Unless you are insisting that viruses, bacteria, amoebas, ants, bats and all the rest of the animal kingdom along with algae, plankton, trees and all the rest of the plant kingdom have separate consciousnesses, then your argument fails miserably as all life functions just fine without it.
Consciousness is a byproduct of the brain. No more, no less. And yes, all lifeforms with brains have some level of consciousness and all living things have some level of awareness. It is all based on chemical reactions, gravity, electromagnetism, weak nuclear force and strong nuclear force.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
