Although I probably have said it myself at some point on here before, I actually don't like this use of the term "radical" to describe right-wing Muslims. "Radical" isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you look at the real definition of "radical", it's like the total opposite of what fundamental Islam is.

I think a minority are extremists. However, a significantly higher proportion of people who identify as "Muslim" probably do have more conservative attitudes than, say, the average Christian. It's not that the religions are very different, in traditional values they're actually almost identical, I just think secularism in the West has paved the way for more liberal attitudes to flourish, even among most Christians who still practice.

(June 10, 2015 at 2:02 pm)TheMessiah Wrote: The argument put forward is to look at Muslim majority nations; which have Islamic beliefs reinforced through law and then poll them.

Then you titled your thread wrong, because you asked "only a minority of Muslims are radical?" with no reference to nations at all. And nowhere in your OP did you mention that only Muslim-majority countries are being considered -- this means that you're now engaging in moving the goalposts.

And even if you were to only include Muslim-majority countries, that still wouldn't allow you to draw the conclusion that the majority of Muslims are extremists, because by sorting by country but making conclusions about people, you're making a category error.

(June 10, 2015 at 2:02 pm)TheMessiah Wrote: 40% of Indonesian Muslims believe in violence in defense of Islam. That is roughly 80 million, yet again, more people than there are in some European countries. Even the 30% of Indonesians who support the death penalty for apostasy, roughly equates to 58 million Muslims (of Indonesia).

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailweek...060728.@03

Egypt has a population of 82.06 million. 80 million are Muslims. 84% of 82 million is roughly 67 million; there are 67 million people in Egypt who see it reasonable that apostates of Islam deserve to die because of it.

Oddly enough, the first two numbers aren't even majorities.

Also, how many Christians would support violence in defense of their faith? Why is there no data for that question? Because I'd bet that solid numbers of Christians would answer to the affirmative on that, at least here in America, and almost certainly in Africa, where they are currently engaged in doing exactly that. I wonder why your "religionofpeace" website doesn't mention that?

(June 10, 2015 at 2:02 pm)TheMessiah Wrote: Either way, I think you are missing the point I was making --- we are constantly smacked with ''A fringe minority of Muslims are radical'' yet what appears to be the case is that entire Muslim majorities in Muslim countries all hold extremely radical beliefs.

This is entirely falsified by the data that you yourself are linking in this very post, as well as your OP. Your analysis of data in support of your premise is entirely unconvincing, and I'm wondering exactly how you can look at a number like 40% and call it a majority, unless you either don't know how to analyze data, suffer bias that renders your post worthless, or are being deliberately dishonest.

When you can explain how you extract statements like the emboldened ones above from the data that you yourself have presented, in a manner that statistically and reasonably holds true, we can perhaps talk. Until then, it looks to me like you're biting the baited hook.

(June 10, 2015 at 2:02 pm)TheMessiah Wrote: Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Nigeria, the list goes on.

Numbers over 50%, please, with supporting links from a non-bullshit source. Pew's a good start; "thereligionofpeace.horseshit" is not.

(June 10, 2015 at 10:50 am)Dystopia Wrote: How? If I posted you some quotes by Harris and Hitler, do you think you would know which ones were said by Hitler and by Harris? [unless you have extensive knowledge on both authors].

Apparently people can't tell the difference between the quotes of Taylor Swift and Hitler either, including her fans...

(June 11, 2015 at 6:20 pm)Saxmoof Wrote: There are plenty of extremely poor, extremely religious countries in the world that don't execute gay people, blasphemers or apostates, and some of them are Muslim. I don't believe that poverty and religion automatically and inevitably lead to religious extremism. Your points about Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq are completely valid but there are more than three Muslim countries in the world, if people in those countries want to take revenge on the west or support those that do i'm sympathetic towards that - this doesn't explain all the other Muslim countries that execute gays, apostates and blasphemers, unless they're just doing it to piss us off

The poverty part has been disproven. It's been consistently shown that the middle and upper classes in Islamic countries are more likely to be radical in their belief.

Quote:Then you titled your thread wrong, because you asked "only a minority of Muslims are radical?" with no reference to nations at all. And nowhere in your OP did you mention that only Muslim-majority countries are being considered -- this means that you're now engaging in moving the goalposts.

And even if you were to only include Muslim-majority countries, that still wouldn't allow you to draw the conclusion that the majority of Muslims are extremists, because by sorting by country but making conclusions about people, you're making a category error.

I made it clear in my thread that I'm challenging the idea of whether a ''fringe minority'' of Muslims are radical. This entails whether entire Muslim majority nations such as Egypt, are all non-radical and only whether a fringe minority are radical. This isn't ''moving goal-posts'' --- this was my intent all along. Indonesian Muslims may be less radical but there are countries like Iran which are not. I'm challenging the notion of whether ''Most of these Muslim countries aren't all that racial'' is true.

Note, that I'm not calling them ''extremist'' - I'm calling them radical. These are the same Muslims that denounce terrorism but believe stoning people to death for adultery is justified.

[quote] Oddly enough, the first two numbers aren't even majorities.

Also, how many Christians would support violence in defense of their faith? Why is there no data for that question? Because I'd bet that solid numbers of Christians would answer to the affirmative on that, at least here in America, and almost certainly in Africa, where they are currently engaged in doing exactly that. I wonder why your "religionofpeace" website doesn't mention that?

The first stat is not, but 40% believing in such a punishment is a significant and startling figure.

Again, where's the evidence that most Christians want to defend their faith with violence? Islam in it's current form is much more radical than Christianity. Nearly 80% of all Americans are Christians and they all differ to varying degrees because many of them are only culturally Christians. When the Christian radical bombed an abortion clinic, he was sentenced to death - he cited his faith as justification yet the court found him guilty - the Christian faith gets stronger once you move down to the Southern States and even then, the Southerners are more likely to believe in a smaller government/less authority.

Where's the evidence that most Christians will kill you if you draw a picture of their prophet? Sure, Christians get pissed off when you make fun of Jesus, but they almost never try to kill you for it. I don't think this comparison is entirely honest here.

The worst Christian group is...the KKK or Westboro Baptist Church? Both of are hate groups yet they're not violent anymore, the same can't be said for Islam - it is far more violent and organised with it's terrorism.

So while Christianity may have been worse, Islam takes the cake for the 21st century.

Now you mentioned Africa, I agree Christianity would be more aggressive in Africa. But even then, Boko Harm is still far more violent than any Christian group found in Africa. Islam is a global threat, Christianity isn't.

Quote:This is entirely falsified by the data that you yourself are linking in this very post, as well as your OP. Your analysis of data in support of your premise is entirely unconvincing, and I'm wondering exactly how you can look at a number like 40% and call it a majority, unless you either don't know how to analyze data, suffer bias that renders your post worthless, or are being deliberately dishonest.

When you can explain how you extract statements like the emboldened ones above from the data that you yourself have presented, in a manner that statistically and reasonably holds true, we can perhaps talk. Until then, it looks to me like you're biting the baited hook.

Firstly, the data isn't falsified.

Secondly, did I claim 40% of a majority? I said 40% of Indonesia, which is a very populated countries already outnumbers entire European countries. I then pointed to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Nigeria, Jordan, Pakistan, etc. These countries what we refer to as ''The Muslim World''

Thirdly, none of what I'm doing is ''biting into the baited hook'' --- the meme we're being sold is that the West has made Muslim countries radical, and while that may be true in terms of terrorism, the fact remains that our morality differs. In some of these countries, it isn't even considered radical to stone someone to death for adultery, or murder a homosexual.

We Atheists always show that we're moral than Southern Christians who hate homosexuals, however countries like Iran have entire populations which are more radical in their belief system than all the Southern ''Christian'' states put together.

The less a Muslim adheres to his/her religion, the more moral they are.

P.S, the ''religionofpeace'' isn't a source you analyse; you analyse the research polls that are cited on that page.

(June 12, 2015 at 4:49 am)jesus_wept Wrote:

(June 10, 2015 at 10:50 am)Dystopia Wrote: How? If I posted you some quotes by Harris and Hitler, do you think you would know which ones were said by Hitler and by Harris? [unless you have extensive knowledge on both authors].

Apparently people can't tell the difference between the quotes of Taylor Swift and Hitler either, including her fans...

As the fuherer once said "Haters gonna hate"

(June 12, 2015 at 6:09 am)TheMessiah Wrote: The poverty part has been disproven. It's been consistently shown that the middle and upper classes in Islamic countries are more likely to be radical in their belief.

Source please.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: Again, where's the evidence that most Christians want to defend their faith with violence?

I know this doesn't fit the narrative that you want to believe -- indeed, that's probably why you haven't bothered searching out such information -- but believe me, if you ask them whether they'd be willing to defend their faith with violence, the numbers even here in America would be higher than you think, especially south of the Mason-Dixon line. Evidence? Here's some Christians who are very happy being just as brutal as the Muslims you would wish to single out:

Quote:BANGUI, Central African Republic – Tens of thousands of Muslims are fleeing to neighboring countries by plane and truck as Christian militias stage brutal attacks, shattering the social fabric of this war-ravaged nation.

In towns and villages as well as here in the capital, Christian vigilantes wielding machetes have killed scores of Muslims, who are a minority here, and burned and looted their houses and mosques in recent days, according to witnesses, aid agencies and peacekeepers. Tens of thousands of Muslims have fled their homes.

Perhaps you've forgotten The Troubles in Northern Ireland?

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that filters in the viewing public cause the media to tailor their reportage to their audience.

Christians would almost certainly take up arms in defense of their faith. Anyone asserting otherwise is in dire need of a history education.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: Islam in it's current form is much more radical than Christianity. Nearly 80% of all Americans are Christians and they all differ to varying degrees because many of them are only culturally Christians. When the Christian radical bombed an abortion clinic, he was sentenced to death - he cited his faith as justification yet the court found him guilty - the Christian faith gets stronger once you move down to the Southern States and even then, the Southerners are more likely to believe in a smaller government/less authority.

Well it's a good thing I wasn't arguing that Christians are currently as violent as Muslims, huh?

And if you think rednecks wouldn't defend their faith with their guns, all I can say is that I humbly disagree.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: Where's the evidence that most Christians will kill you if you draw a picture of their prophet? Sure, Christians get pissed off when you make fun of Jesus, but they almost never try to kill you for it. I don't think this comparison is entirely honest here.

"Defense of their faith" is a very broad question, which is exactly what I was getting at: you can get almost any desired response by tailoring poll questions ... and then massaging the stats, as that site clearly has done.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: The worst Christian group is...the KKK or Westboro Baptist Church? Both of are hate groups yet they're not violent anymore, the same can't be said for Islam - it is far more violent and organised with it's terrorism.

Muslim terrorism is organized? What planet are you living on? They kill each other over sectarian differences far more than they non-Muslims, and Muslim terrorists seem to most often operate in tiny, independent cells only loosely affiliated with each other, sometimes an affiliation only found in choice of name.

Quote:So while Christianity may have been worse, Islam takes the cake for the 21st century.

More goal-post moving ... changing the criteria after the old criteria have been met.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: Now you mentioned Africa, I agree Christianity would be more aggressive in Africa. But even then, Boko Harm is still far more violent than any Christian group found in Africa.

See the above link.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: Islam is a global threat, Christianity isn't.

Some Muslims are ... certainily not the majority that you are claiming is.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: Firstly, the data isn't falsified.

You should learn how to read. I said your premise is falsified, not the data.

Quote:Secondly, did I claim 40% of a majority? I said 40% of Indonesia, which is a very populated countries already outnumbers entire European countries. I then pointed to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Nigeria, Jordan, Pakistan, etc. These countries what we refer to as ''The Muslim World''

Your title says "majority", yet your statistics don't demonstrate it.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: Thirdly, none of what I'm doing is ''biting into the baited hook'' --- the meme we're being sold is that the West has made Muslim countries radical, and while that may be true in terms of terrorism, the fact remains that our morality differs. In some of these countries, it isn't even considered radical to stone someone to death for adultery, or murder a homosexual.

Of course you're biting the baited hook, being told that the "majority" of Muslims engage in those barbaric practices, when in fact they are a minority, and then trying to prop such a view up with cherry-picking a poll.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: We Atheists always show that we're moral than Southern Christians who hate homosexuals, however countries like Iran have entire populations which are more radical in their belief system than all the Southern ''Christian'' states put together.

How many Iranians do you know? I know quite a few, personally. I think your view is skewed.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: The less a Muslim adheres to his/her religion, the more moral they are.

lol, only a simpleton believes that morality is related to religion.

(June 12, 2015 at 6:32 am)TheMessiah Wrote: P.S, the ''religionofpeace'' isn't a source you analyse; you analyse the research polls that are cited on that page.

Ideally, you should. You clearly have not.

Quote:Islam is a global threat, Christianity isn't.

(June 12, 2015 at 11:29 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Your title says "majority", yet your statistics don't demonstrate it.

And I should have written "your title implies 'majority', yet your statistics don't demonstrate it."

Forgive my sloppy English.