(June 14, 2015 at 10:13 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Don't we all "hide" our naughty bits? I'm about as stacked as kitten heels, but I imagine that if I walked down the street topless, I'd get a few looks, and maybe arrested.

Sorry; Benny, I'm just a little baffled.  You say you support people identifying with who they feel they are, but then you get all wrapped up in semantics and the "late reveal".  What point are you trying to make? I feel like it's gotten lost...

First of all, I support your right to walk down the street topless, regardless of their size.  I've seen men with freaking double-D's on a beach.  If I can survive that, I can survive seeing female breasts.

It's in the OP, and hasn't changed.  I believe there's a different between living AS something and BEING that thing.  I readily concede that gender is a complex issue.  However, the reality is that someone like Jenner, who has a penis and was born a man, is not equivalent to a natural-born woman.  Treating him with respect doesn't have to mean accepting that the Emperor is wearing fine new clothes.  You can choose to refer to Caitlyn as a woman, but the reality is that it's not the same thing as, say, my mother being a woman, or my daughter. I'm getting tired of being called a bigot, or it being claimed that I'm sexually insecure, or that I don't get the issues, just because I differentiate between a natural-born woman and a person who identifies as a woman, but whose body has male parts.

Identity issues don't just affect the free expression of someone's own identity.  They matter in a lot of legal and other areas, as well.  For example, should a person with testicles and the resulting high levels of testosterone during their developmental years be allowed to compete as a woman in the Olympics?  Jenner was a superior athlete as a man-- what if he had competed as a woman?  He could have won many, many medals, depriving natural-born females from the opportunity to win their deserved accolades.

In the OP case, which involves race, there are some real social benefits to being black-- special scholarships, for example, or preferential treatment in selection for specific kinds of posts (which the OP apparently held, actually).  Should her insistence on identifying as black allow her those special considerations? No. She's white, not black, and doesn't fall under the umbrella of special assistance granted black people in the US in order to help them equalize their opportunities. Her self-identification should therefore not be accepted by others.

(June 14, 2015 at 10:47 pm)bennyboy Wrote: First of all, I support your right to walk down the street topless, regardless of their size.  I've seen men with freaking double-D's on a beach.  If I can survive that, I can survive seeing female breasts.

Oh, juicy, juicy irony. Thou taste so sweet.

(June 14, 2015 at 10:46 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: You. Literally. Said. It. Two. Sentences. Later.

When I say "hide their penises," I'm not talking about tucking. I am talking about hiding the fact that they have a penis. And you keep reading the first line and ignoring everything afterwards.

You are deliberately avoiding my point. My point is that the need to disclose reveals a difference between natural-born women and transgender women. They are not equivalent.

(June 14, 2015 at 10:53 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(June 14, 2015 at 10:47 pm)bennyboy Wrote: First of all, I support your right to walk down the street topless, regardless of their size.  I've seen men with freaking double-D's on a beach.  If I can survive that, I can survive seeing female breasts.

Oh, juicy, juicy irony. Thou taste so sweet.

Not seeing it.

(June 14, 2015 at 10:57 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(June 14, 2015 at 10:46 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: You. Literally. Said. It. Two. Sentences. Later.

When I say "hide their penises," I'm not talking about tucking. I am talking about hiding the fact that they have a penis. And you keep reading the first line and ignoring everything afterwards.

You are deliberately avoiding my point. My point is that the need to disclose reveals a difference between natural-born women and transgender women. They are not equivalent.

It's hard to believe that you are this dense. It's like you haven't read anything I've said. I literally quoted myself twice linking to two times and more that I have said that no one has ever suggested that they are the same, and neither do the transgender people think they are the same, and no one has asked you to accept that they are physically the same. What we are saying is that there is a difference between sex and gender, and that a person can be female gender and male sex. And that just because a person is female gender does not mean she's trying to hide the male anatomy from sexual partners---and your insistence that they are is what is causing so much resistance.

(June 14, 2015 at 10:58 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Not seeing it.

Don't you worry your little head about it. It's obvious to the rest of us.

(June 14, 2015 at 11:08 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(June 14, 2015 at 10:57 pm)bennyboy Wrote: You are deliberately avoiding my point.  My point is that the need to disclose reveals a difference between natural-born women and transgender women.  They are not equivalent.

It's hard to believe that you are this dense. It's like you haven't read anything I've said. I literally quoted myself twice linking to two times and more that I have said that no one has ever suggested that they are the same, and neither do the transgender people think they are the same, and no one has asked you to accept that they are physically the same. What we are saying is that there is a difference between sex and gender, and that a person can be female gender and male sex. And that just because a person is female gender does not mean she's trying to hide the male anatomy from sexual partners---and your insistence that they are is what is causing so much resistance.

First, quote where I insisted that transwomen are hiding their sex organs from her sexual partners. You keep accusing me of not reading what you've said-- prove you're not a hypocrite by quoting where I accused transwomen of sexually assaulting men by late reveals.

Second, go back to the many posts in which I acknowledged the social issues, rights, and ambiguities in defining gender, and be honest that I HAVE acknowledged them. I'm tired of defending the things you keep saying I've said, but haven't.

We have always been talking about a hypothetical transgender woman, this archetype that you created, who is "late revealing" people. From step one. No one put those words into your mouth. Why even bring it up if you aren't suggesting it's something that happens? Especially if your claimed point was something that everyone was already agreeing with you about.

You say that you are acknowledging the social issues. I have read those posts. I will acknowledge that you are saying those things. But, then you say things that directly contradict them.

(June 15, 2015 at 12:30 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: We have always been talking about a hypothetical transgender woman, this archetype that you created, who is "late revealing" people. From step one. No one put those words into your mouth. Why even bring it up if you aren't suggesting it's something that happens? Especially if your claimed point was something that everyone was already agreeing with you about.

You say that you are acknowledging the social issues. I have read those posts. I will acknowledge that you are saying those things. But, then you say things that directly contradict them.

Okay.  I think I've made my points, on both sides.  I thank you guys for arguing so strongly, and as soon as Caitlyn Jenner came up, I could see where it was going.  I hope you'll accept that I'm not a freak, and I represent a large portion of the population.  I think I do-- I'll leave it to you whether you decide to believe that.

In case you guys haven't seen it on the news yet, here's TYT talking about the OP:

(June 14, 2015 at 6:00 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(June 14, 2015 at 11:20 am)Neimenovic Wrote: We've addressed this already. It has nothing to do with interests, stereotypes, sexism or what society perceives to be male or female. This is rooted in brain structure and chemistry.

Okay, let's get scientific. What about a transgender's brain structure or chemistry make her a woman? And what would you say about an actual woman who does not have that specific brain structure or chemistry?

You didn't bother to read anything I and Steel linked then. Thanks.

Help me out here, man. What. Is. Your. Fucking. Point.