Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 3:26 pm
(This post was last modified: June 25, 2015 at 3:32 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 25, 2015 at 3:11 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree completely, and have brought it up on my own in a different thread. I have talked about how I don't think atheists are going to Hell simply for not being able to believe. I think a person who lives a life of virtue will go to Heaven. :-)
Is there anything I said that made you think I believed differently?
I'm happy you think so, but what does Catholic doctrine state will happen to atheists?
Also, if you read my signature you will see that the Pope believes you guys got as good a chance as anybody. Just 'do good.' Live good lives, love others, and we'll go from there.
(June 25, 2015 at 3:19 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree completely, and have brought it up on my own in a different thread. I have talked about how I don't think atheists are going to Hell simply for not being able to believe. I think a person who lives a life of virtue will go to Heaven. :-)
Well that makes me feel a lot better thanks. Oh hang on a minute, just over on the christian and islam forums they are pretty insistent that atheists/infidels will go to hell.
Now I'm confused, which one of you believers should an atheist believe if he wants to go to heaven?
I can't speak for Islam or for Protestants. I can only say that the Catholic Church does not teach that atheists will go to Hell... leaving it up to each individual person to make their own assessment.
The Church does teach though that we are not to speculate on any particular person going to Hell.
(and if it's any consolation, many protestants believe Catholics are going to Hell too, so you are not alone lol)
(June 25, 2015 at 3:22 pm)Napoléon Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 12:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm sorry you feel that way, but if my beliefs are offenssive to people, then perhaps they should not ask.
Says the one who came onto an atheist forum labelling themselves a catholic.
As you can see, all my forums have been questions to you, atheists. All the information I have shared about my faith I have done so because it was asked of me.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 7140
Threads: 12
Joined: March 14, 2013
Reputation:
72
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 3:40 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 3:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't know what we would be if we didn't have free will. Think about that for a second. This would mean that we would have no control over our bodies or our minds. We would just be empty shells... hand puppets. We would have no emotions. We would be nothing. I would not exist, and neither would you.
So yes, I'd consider this not existing at all, because that's what it would be.
With free will, we can exist. We still have the choice to try our best to live good lives and love others. I'd rather exist and take my chances with Hell, than not exist at all (which is basically what would mean if I had no free will.) It seems as if you are saying that free will is our ability to make decisions and think for ourselves. It's what drives one person to decide he will be a journalist, and another to decide that she will learn to play the guitar. It's what makes chocolate chip ice cream your favorite dessert, but strawberry cheesecake your husband's preference. It's why you love to wear blue jeans instead of a skirt, or a big floppy hat instead of a baseball cap. Does that sound right? Those are the things that differentiate us from one another. Is that what free will does for us?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
Posts: 7045
Threads: 20
Joined: June 17, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 3:42 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 3:11 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: I'm happy you think so, but what does Catholic doctrine state will happen to atheists?
Also, if you read my signature you will see that the Pope believes you guys got as good a chance as anybody. Just 'do good.' Live good lives, love others, and we'll go from there.
What does catholic doctrine says about those who so not believe in god? I'm not asking for you to speculate, and I'm not asking for what the pope might've said (remarks that were quickly backtracked and qualified by the Vatican, by the way).
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 7318
Threads: 75
Joined: April 18, 2015
Reputation:
73
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 3:42 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Also, if you read my signature you will see that the Pope believes you guys got as good a chance as anybody. Just 'do good.' Live good lives, love others, and we'll go from there.
What's the need for the catholic church, the bible or religion in general then?
Posts: 12231
Threads: 324
Joined: April 14, 2011
Reputation:
140
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 3:45 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As you can see, all my forums have been questions to you, atheists. All the information I have shared about my faith I have done so because it was asked of me.
No, no, you came to this forum. Nobody asked you to do that. That you asked questions is irrelevant. You still came here as a catholic and engaged in conversation with people.
I'm not knocking it, but you can't sit there and act all innocent like people only have themselves to blame if they find your views offensive.
If I was a member of the KKK, went on a multi-cultural website that celebrated diversity, JAQ'd off and then only after questioning revealed that I thought black people were subhuman, do you think I'd get away with it? Do you think other people are to blame for asking about those fucked up views?
Posts: 862
Threads: 51
Joined: May 14, 2014
Reputation:
11
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 3:48 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I can't speak for Islam or for Protestants. I can only say that the Catholic Church does not teach that atheists will go to Hell... leaving it up to each individual person to make their own assessment.
The Church does teach though that we are not to speculate on any particular person going to Hell.
(and if it's any consolation, many protestants believe Catholics are going to Hell too, so you are not alone lol)
Ah ok, so to hedge my bets as an unbeliever, I just need to believe your particular churches teachings, ignore the other religions and I'm off to the pearly gates without doing anything else. Almost seems too easy, can't really see why people go to all the bother of praying and wasting all that time in church when I can drink my JD, play Witcher 3, masturbate until my eyes water and just believe what you said.
If only those crazy fundies and muslims new they were wrong all this time. They're going to have such a shock when I rock up at heaven without having done anything like the work they've done to get their eternal life guarantee.
Nice one, see you there.
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 4:03 pm
(This post was last modified: June 25, 2015 at 4:05 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 25, 2015 at 3:42 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Also, if you read my signature you will see that the Pope believes you guys got as good a chance as anybody. Just 'do good.' Live good lives, love others, and we'll go from there.
What does catholic doctrine says about those who so not believe in god? I'm not asking for you to speculate, and I'm not asking for what the pope might've said (remarks that were quickly backtracked and qualified by the Vatican, by the way).
It doesn't say whether you will go to Heaven or Hell because we are not to make conclusive statements on something that is purely God's job. You can take from that what you'd like. I take from it that it's a case by case basis. If it weren't, and it was a cut and dry thing, I would assume the Church would make the blanket statement "all atheists go to Hell." :-)
(June 25, 2015 at 3:42 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Also, if you read my signature you will see that the Pope believes you guys got as good a chance as anybody. Just 'do good.' Live good lives, love others, and we'll go from there.
What's the need for the catholic church, the bible or religion in general then?
Because we think it's true.
(June 25, 2015 at 3:48 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I can't speak for Islam or for Protestants. I can only say that the Catholic Church does not teach that atheists will go to Hell... leaving it up to each individual person to make their own assessment.
The Church does teach though that we are not to speculate on any particular person going to Hell.
(and if it's any consolation, many protestants believe Catholics are going to Hell too, so you are not alone lol)
Ah ok, so to hedge my bets as an unbeliever, I just need to believe your particular churches teachings, ignore the other religions and I'm off to the pearly gates without doing anything else. Almost seems too easy, can't really see why people go to all the bother of praying and wasting all that time in church when I can drink my JD, play Witcher 3, masturbate until my eyes water and just believe what you said.
If only those crazy fundies and muslims new they were wrong all this time. They're going to have such a shock when I rock up at heaven without having done anything like the work they've done to get their eternal life guarantee.
Nice one, see you there.
You don't need to do anything. I'm just answering your question.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 7318
Threads: 75
Joined: April 18, 2015
Reputation:
73
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 4:07 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 4:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 3:42 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: What's the need for the catholic church, the bible or religion in general then?
Because we think it's true.
you said as long as you're good, you go to heaven.
Why mass? Why confession? Why rituals? Why bible? Why anything? Just be good And you're covered.
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 4:16 pm
(This post was last modified: June 25, 2015 at 4:17 pm by robvalue.)
Free will fails because of heaven, but it fails hard in other ways. Clearly we are not just free to do whatever, there are limitations. And other people can infringe on those limitations. If a guy grabs a child and rapes it, what happens to the free will of the child? It's effectively cut off. It can't get away or fight the guy off. So the child has lost any meaningful free will. It can shout and try and get loose, but it's not going to matter.
So the alternatives are: God sits by and does nothing while the child has its free will violated and gets raped while respecting the free will of the rapist, or god steps in and stops the rape happening at all, temporarily removing the free will of the rapist for just as long as need be each time. Which is the better option, and which causes less effect on free will overall?
That's not getting into why God would design humans so that there would ever be anyone wanting to rape a child in the first place. I often disappear into a world of my own imagination where I have free will to do wonderful happy things of my choosing, but no one ever gets hurt. No one even thinks about hurting anyone else, it's just not done. So I guess my imagination, given to me by God, is more powerful than God! What a conundrum.
Posts: 3676
Threads: 354
Joined: April 12, 2015
Reputation:
42
RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 5:01 pm
I agree with Neimenovic. It's just not possible for free moral agents to exist in a world ruled by an omnipotent, omniscient god. Not even if he were all-loving.
If he were just there to help, I'd probably come to depend on his help and not learn to be an independent person.
To wish for god to exist means wishing for reality itself to be so different I'd have no idea exactly what I'd be wishing for.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire
Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
|
