(June 28, 2015 at 9:59 am)PiousPaladin Wrote: Christianity has only grown in numbers since its founding, God also promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail over his Church. The word of God is not to be doubted and his promise is true.

I am not a Catholic because it feels good. God calls us to be loyal not happy. Obedience to his will will lead to eternal salvation and joy in his presence, but in this life such base concerns as pleasure are irrelevant.

What if submitting to gods will didn't lead to eternal salvation? Your saying you submit to his will because your going to get a favorable reward in the end, that really is the same as saying your catholic because it makes you feel good. Lets face it if gods message was "do what I say, because being commanded by me is its on reward." the catholic faith would not have that many followers, they are offering eternal life, which makes people feel good. Also why do we need salvation? What are we being saved from? Oh ya, its god offering us salvation from his own wrath, how loving he is indeed.

(June 28, 2015 at 9:59 am)PiousPaladin Wrote: Christianity has only grown in numbers since its founding, God also promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail over his Church. The word of God is not to be doubted and his promise is true.

I am not a Catholic because it feels good. God calls us to be loyal not happy. Obedience to his will will lead to eternal salvation and joy in his presence, but in this life such base concerns as pleasure are irrelevant.

Are you sure you will even recognise pleasure if you get it in heaven? Maybe you won't like it, such is the miserable life you lead on earth.

I'll be blunt and this will be my first and last communication with you. From what I've read from you on here so far, you are the sort of Christian that makes me sick to my stomach. Not only do you condemn all but yourself to hell in the afterlife, including Christians of other denominations, but you also condone and promote violence in this life to end the heresy that you see and fear will spread. But the worst part is you do not recognise how selfish that makes you. It all boils down to this: you want eternal joy in heaven and are ready and willing to destroy everyone and everything that stands in your way to get that. I bet you'd happily sacrifice your kin to god as well, just to guarantee your place in heaven? But is it even about the love of god? I doubt it. If god turned the tables and said 'worship and obey me and I will send you to hell' you'd be switching sides before you could blink. That is the behaviour of a psychopath and nothing more. If what you've said on this site is true, and you're not a Poe, then I believe you are a psychopath and want nothing further to do with you. Goodbye!

(June 28, 2015 at 11:13 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 9:59 am)PiousPaladin Wrote: Christianity has only grown in numbers since its founding, God also promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail over his Church. The word of God is not to be doubted and his promise is true.

I am not a Catholic because it feels good. God calls us to be loyal not happy. Obedience to his will will lead to eternal salvation and joy in his presence, but in this life such base concerns as pleasure are irrelevant.

What if submitting to gods will didn't lead to eternal salvation? Your saying you submit to his will because your going to get a favorable reward in the end, that really is the same as saying your catholic because it makes you feel good. Lets face it if gods message was "do what I say, because being commanded by me is its on reward." the catholic faith would not have that many followers, they are offering eternal life, which makes people feel good. Also why do we need salvation? What are we being saved from? Oh ya, its god offering us salvation from his own wrath, how loving he is indeed.

We are Catholic because we believe that God exists and that Jesus is His son. We believe that Jesus promised to build a church and that the Catholic Church is that church.

We are not necessarily Catholic because it makes us feel good - though it does because it does feel good to be doing what God expects of us.

But why is that a problem? Don't all humans have similar feelings?

We help little old ladies across the street because it makes us feel good.
We donate kidneys because it makes us feel good.
We fight and die for our countries because it makes us feel good.

No one likes suffering...whether it is giving up a seat on a bus to a pregnant woman or being beheaded by ISIS because of our faith in Jesus.

Doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do does make us feel good. That just means we're human.

Christians aren't any different from anyone else in that regard, are they?

(June 28, 2015 at 11:34 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Christians aren't any different from anyone else in that regard, are they?

If that were where it stopped, but it does not. Christians feel it is their duty and mission to institute laws. policies, etc, that undermine what "feels good" for me. That is the issue. Keep it in your own backyard and we are just fine with whatever flavour kool-aid you prefer.

(June 28, 2015 at 11:34 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 11:13 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: What if submitting to gods will didn't lead to eternal salvation? Your saying you submit to his will because your going to get a favorable reward in the end, that really is the same as saying your catholic because it makes you feel good. Lets face it if gods message was "do what I say, because being commanded by me is its on reward." the catholic faith would not have that many followers, they are offering eternal life, which makes people feel good. Also why do we need salvation? What are we being saved from? Oh ya, its god offering us salvation from his own wrath, how loving he is indeed.

We are Catholic because we believe that God exists and that Jesus is His son. We believe that Jesus promised to build a church and that the Catholic Church is that church.

We are not necessarily Catholic because it makes us feel good - though it does because it does feel good to be doing what God expects of us.

But why is that a problem? Don't all humans have similar feelings?

We help little old ladies across the street because it makes us feel good.
We donate kidneys because it makes us feel good.
We fight and die for our countries because it makes us feel good.

No one likes suffering...whether it is giving up a seat on a bus to a pregnant woman or being beheaded by ISIS because of our faith in Jesus.

Doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do does make us feel good. That just means we're human.

Christians aren't any different from anyone else in that regard, are they?

Doesn't address my question. What if god wasn't offering eternal salvation, would you still be willing to submit to him? Is it really doing the right thing? Submitting your will to a god that holds eternal torture over your head hardly seems like doing whats right for the sake of doing whats right. Also yes, you are catholic because it makes you feel good, you believe that by accepting jesus you will receive eternal reward in heaven and that makes you feel good, I'm not saying that makes you bad or different from anyone else.

(June 28, 2015 at 11:40 am)IATIA Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 11:34 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Christians aren't any different from anyone else in that regard, are they?

If that were where it stopped, but it does not.  Christians feel it is their duty and mission to institute laws. policies, etc, that undermine what "feels good" for me.  That is the issue.  Keep it in your own backyard and we are just fine with whatever flavour kool-aid you prefer.

Be careful what you ask for...

(June 28, 2015 at 11:45 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 11:34 am)Randy Carson Wrote: We are Catholic because we believe that God exists and that Jesus is His son. We believe that Jesus promised to build a church and that the Catholic Church is that church.

We are not necessarily Catholic because it makes us feel good - though it does because it does feel good to be doing what God expects of us.

But why is that a problem? Don't all humans have similar feelings?

We help little old ladies across the street because it makes us feel good.
We donate kidneys because it makes us feel good.
We fight and die for our countries because it makes us feel good.

No one likes suffering...whether it is giving up a seat on a bus to a pregnant woman or being beheaded by ISIS because of our faith in Jesus.

Doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do does make us feel good. That just means we're human.

Christians aren't any different from anyone else in that regard, are they?

Doesn't address my question. What if god wasn't offering eternal salvation, would you still be willing to submit to him? Is it really doing the right thing? Submitting your to a god that holds eternal torture over your head hardly seems like doing whats right for the sake of doing whats right.

If there were no heaven and no hell, then what would be the purpose of paying any attention to God at all? What you're proposing is that there would be no consequences for ANY of our decisions (beyond our valuation of their effects on others). You would be completely free to do whatever you want (according to the dictates of your own conscience), because in the end, it all comes to nothing anyway. So, sure...ignore God...He's irrelevant.

But that's NOT this situation in which we find ourselves. (It is the situation you believe to be the case, but that is a problem owing to your lack of faith.) We have been shown the alternatives (heaven & hell) as well as the loving nature of a God with whom we may have a personal relationship. God is love, He loves us, and He is lovable. Choosing to do what God wants because we love Him and desire to be with Him for eternity makes sense in that context.

However, there have been many saints whose experience of God's love was SO profound that they were able to say they would willingly endure the pains of hell for eternity if that was what God wanted.

I can honestly say that I'm not at that level.

(June 28, 2015 at 11:58 am)Randy Carson Wrote: We have been shown the alternatives (heaven & hell) as well as the loving nature of a God with whom we may have a personal relationship.

"We have been shown"? I never saw it. Did you?

"loving nature of a God"? Where is that information?

It's written on your heart IATIA. Duh.

(June 28, 2015 at 11:58 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 11:45 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: Doesn't address my question. What if god wasn't offering eternal salvation, would you still be willing to submit to him? Is it really doing the right thing? Submitting your to a god that holds eternal torture over your head hardly seems like doing whats right for the sake of doing whats right.

If there were no heaven and no hell, then what would be the purpose of paying any attention to God at all? What you're proposing is that there would be no consequences for ANY of our decisions (beyond our valuation of their effects on others). You would be completely free to do whatever you want (according to the dictates of your own conscience), because in the end, it all comes to nothing anyway. So, sure...ignore God...He's irrelevant.

But that's NOT this situation in which we find ourselves. (It is the situation you believe to be the case, but that is a problem owing to your lack of faith.) We have been shown the alternatives (heaven & hell) as well as the loving nature of a God with whom we may have a personal relationship. God is love, He loves us, and He is lovable. Choosing to do what God wants because we love Him and desire to be with Him for eternity makes sense in that context.

However, there have been many saints whose experience of God's love was SO profound that they were able to say they would willingly endure the pains of hell for eternity if that was what God wanted.

I can honestly say that I'm not at that level.

Well no actually your not free to do whatever you want, we are still accountable to each other within the reality in which we inhabit. Heaven and hell are of no consequence to me because I don't believe either of them exist, but I'm am still bound by the same rules and consequences that believers are in reality.

Again your doing what gods want because you want love in heaven and not hell, if he was offering neither you would not  be willing to submit to him, so it boils down to what makes you happy. You think your options are profound love in heaven or eternal torture in hell, your not picking heaven because you love god, your picking heaven because its preferable to hell. Also the fact that you think an entity is showing you profound love by giving you a choice between eternal worship or eternal torture, tells me you don't care who this entity is and your really only concerned with where your ass ends up.