(June 28, 2015 at 9:58 am)Tonus Wrote:

(June 27, 2015 at 3:01 am)Godschild Wrote: I've never met anyone either, I have been made aware of the fact Satan exists, it comes from God and now by what I see in many people. God has made it abundantly clear He exists in my life and has everything to offer that's good. Satan on the other hand is called the deceiver, he would rather people believe he doesn't exist, it's to his advantage for people to believe this and Satan has nothing to offer, he's now a pawn in God's great plan and he hates it.

Quote:If Satan gets what he wants when people aren't able to get close enough to god, then god should foil his plans.  Why give Satan what he wants?

God must allow Satan some freedoms, if He didn't Satan and those who support him would accuse God of manipulation. It boils down to this it's not what Satan wants and never was, it's about people having the freedom to choose to love God or reject Him.

Godschild Wrote:You know what I find really strange about Eve's attitude when she dealt with the serpent, she told him before hand she would die and even added to the commandment from God about toughing the fruit as if to emphasize that she wasn't going to eat it. Seemed to me she knew that no matter what the serpent said she would die if she disobeyed God.

God said they were a stubborn, hardheaded clan and that this attitude would come to bite them, low and behold it did. The great problem the Israelites had was they believed they owned God because He told them they were a special people, they forgot to ask why He considered them special and when God told them they didn't believe what they heard.

Quote:That's what I mean.  Even a stubborn person who had seen what they had seen would have had to understand the situation, and why acting against god made no sense.

 
Not when they thought they owned God and that He wouldn't do anything about their sin, they were special after all. They must have believe they were so special God wouldn't punish them. You think man can rationalize powers that can destroy. During the Cuban Missile Crisis one Russian sailor and only him had the sense to not use the nuclear missiles on the sub he was on, if he hadn't disobeyed the order we would have been engaged in a war beyond belief, only one man in actuality saved the world from a nuclear disaster. Think about it, had not the man been sent on that particular sub we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Quote:I may not like that it is raining outside, but if I have to go out I will get my umbrella.  That these people made such bad decisions in light of what they knew is impossible to believe.

Going out in the rain with an umbrella and defying God are not even close to the same thing. I hope what I wrote above will give you a rational about people and their greed of self interest.

Godschild Wrote:Right they had a physical encounter with Christ and understood clearly what God was capable of.

Quote:And this is something that is not offered to everyone today.  If the people who experienced Jesus were capable of stumbling or even turning against him, then it means that there is something in our design that leads us to make extraordinarily bad decisions.

You're right, the sin nature that we all inherited from Adam and Eve once they unleashed it from themselves. Explain how Christ was suppose to start His ministry without showing himself to those who wee to carry on the ministry. Jesus told Thomas blessed are those who believe without seeing, He certainly must have meant we would receive something extra because we are not given the physical knowledge they had.

Quote: If this were the case, then god has deliberately stacked the deck against most of humanity.  That goes completely against the idea that he is a loving person who wishes for everyone to be saved.

I know we've discussed this before yet you keep ignoring it and I do not understand why you do such a thing. God has given us the choice to choose Him in love or to reject Him for whatever we decide, He loves us enough to not force us into His serves but wants us to decide for ourselves. God does not wish for anything, the scriptures use the word desires, wishing is only for those who are not omniscient.

Godschild Wrote:Christ told Thomas you have believed because you saw, but blessed are those who will believe without seeing. Because of our faith in the unseen God we can be blessed with the same knowledge that those who saw Him had, does this make sense to you?

Quote:I think that Jesus was telling Thomas that --having seen all the things that he had done already and his predictions about his own resurrection-- he should've trusted his fellow disciples and not been so suspicious.  I don't think it means that we are blessed if we believe something with no evidence whatsoever.  Otherwise we are blessed for not believing in god just as you might be blessed for believing in him.  Without a basis for belief, faith is meaningless.

I disagree totally with your answer. God calls all and gives us the opportunity to have faith, it's not His fault people ignores His calling and refuse to receive the faith He will give for belief. I'm really confused how you were able to rationalize the answer. 

Godschild Wrote:Since there is a God that doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Quote:But no one has convinced me that there is a god.

It's not up to people to convince you that God's real, that is what God will do for those who seek to know Him. God knows when a persons heart is really seeking and He will answer. Scripture actually teaches this.

Quote: And the evidence leads me towards the conclusion that there isn't one.

What evidence, I've never seen any evidence that God doesn't exist, but then since God has revealed himself to me I know no such evidence exists.

Quote: For me, the world as it exists makes more sense as the result of unguided events, not the hand of a benevolent and loving deity who wants me to be saved, but leaves me in a situation where the odds make it very likely that I will fail, and blames me for failing.  That's not what good, fair, and just people do.

Then you must believe in coincidences beyond any belief I could ever muster. God's loved you so much that he gave up His only Son to a cross, a sacrificial lamb to be the atonement for your sins that you have no way of clearing off the books. The odds are in your favor, you've been told of the gift of grace through Christ, all you have to do is ask with a true heart.

Quote:Enjoy the weekend and stay safe.

Thank you, I did both.

GC

(June 29, 2015 at 4:08 pm)Godschild Wrote: God must allow Satan some freedoms, if He didn't Satan and those who support him would accuse God of manipulation. It boils down to this it's not what Satan wants and never was, it's about people having the freedom to choose to love God or reject Him.

I don't think god has to allow satan any freedom that could lead to the fall of mankind. If god knows what is best because everything is his creation, he is within his rights to curtail freedom in order to protect that creation from itself. As the creator of everything, his every action is a manipulation of some sort, so that should not be an issue for him.

Godschild Wrote:Not when they thought they owned God and that He wouldn't do anything about their sin, they were special after all. They must have believe they were so special God wouldn't punish them.

Why would they think that? God had been working with them, talking with them, guiding them. He explained the deal with the tree very specifically. Do you believe that they were unable to comprehend the concept of death or the concept of lies? Eve fell for a lie so easily, and ignored death as a consequence. Is this because she was unprepared for the situation she was put in?

Godschild Wrote:Going out in the rain with an umbrella and defying God are not even close to the same thing. I hope what I wrote above will give you a rational about people and their greed of self interest.

What I mean is, we know to take precautions. Yes, men in tense situations may make rash decisions. Is that what Adam and Eve did? Simply ignored everything they knew and made a rash decision? Because that means that our fate for the past several thousand years (and for eternity) are dependent on two people who couldn't handle pressure.

Godschild Wrote:You're right, the sin nature that we all inherited from Adam and Eve once they unleashed it from themselves. Explain how Christ was suppose to start His ministry without showing himself to those who wee to carry on the ministry. Jesus told Thomas blessed are those who believe without seeing, He certainly must have meant we would receive something extra because we are not given the physical knowledge they had.

That something extra would need to be quite extraordinary to be the same as personally knowing god when he came to the earth in human form. Most of what people describe sounds a lot like coincidence, biased interpretation, or hallucination. And that's aside from the various different gods or versions of god that those experiences lead people to. It seems too risky a way to reach people. Why not have continued to preach as himself for a much longer time? It would be tougher to ignore a man who had lived, say, 1200 years and written countless books of such stunning brilliance that we could not ignore what he represented.

Godschild Wrote:I know we've discussed this before yet you keep ignoring it and I do not understand why you do such a thing. God has given us the choice to choose Him in love or to reject Him for whatever we decide, He loves us enough to not force us into His serves but wants us to decide for ourselves. God does not wish for anything, the scriptures use the word desires, wishing is only for those who are not omniscient.

But clearly he has designed people with a pretty substantial flaw, that even those who know him directly are capable of rejecting him, even in light of the possible consequences. Depending on how they interpret the Bible, Christians believe that anywhere from 55% to 95% of all people will reject god, even though they have no excuse for not believing. That's an astonishing failure rate considering the situation. Do you really feel that so many people are willingly rejecting god when they have such a clear and easy decision before them?

Godschild Wrote:I disagree totally with your answer. God calls all and gives us the opportunity to have faith, it's not His fault people ignores His calling and refuse to receive the faith He will give for belief. I'm really confused how you were able to rationalize the answer.

Well, either we are blessed for having faith without seeing, or god is calling to us and giving us cause to have faith. Faith without seeing means that we don't have to have any experience with god to believe in him. If god is giving cause, then there is a basis for faith. It has to be one or the other, they are exclusive positions. Does god give us reason to believe, or are we supposed to believe without seeing?

Godschild Wrote:It's not up to people to convince you that God's real, that is what God will do for those who seek to know Him. God knows when a persons heart is really seeking and He will answer. Scripture actually teaches this.

I include god in the "no one" who has convinced me. I believed and worshiped for many years, but never found god.

Godschild Wrote:What evidence, I've never seen any evidence that God doesn't exist, but then since God has revealed himself to me I know no such evidence exists.

The fact that the explanations for how our world exists and works can be explained without god. The way that culture determines which god --and even which version of god-- people are likely to worship. The fact that no particular god has shown up to settle the issue in a world that people feel desperately needs him. Many other such facts and realizations along those lines. Everything we know about the universe can be explained without god. I think that's far more relevant than people seem to think.

Godschild Wrote:Then you must believe in coincidences beyond any belief I could ever muster.

That may seem to be the case on the surface, but the more we learn about the world and universe the more pieces we find that fit into a puzzle that doesn't require a god. What we've learned about the development of life on the planet is incredibly extensive, and so far all the pieces fit into a pattern that makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. That is staggering. But most people aren't aware of just how extensive the information has become or how well it all fits together. For that much evidence to fit that well into a theory that doesn't require god should give most people pause, but they're just not aware of it.

(June 28, 2015 at 8:20 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 1:26 pm)Cato Wrote: So says a boy whom the author of Mark never met. A boy who is later replaced by angels in the story. None of this makes any sense, but you choose to believe it anyway.

If Mark knew nothing of Jesus' resurrection, why did he have the character in his story say the words, "He is risen!"?

Because he was a baker who liked to gender his bread.

Don't like that? Interesting, how you'll find that to be ridiculous, but the guy rising from the dead, that works just fine for you.

(June 30, 2015 at 8:07 am)Tonus Wrote:

(June 29, 2015 at 4:08 pm)Godschild Wrote: God must allow Satan some freedoms, if He didn't Satan and those who support him would accuse God of manipulation. It boils down to this it's not what Satan wants and never was, it's about people having the freedom to choose to love God or reject Him.

Quote:I don't think god has to allow satan any freedom that could lead to the fall of mankind.  If god knows what is best because everything is his creation, he is within his rights to curtail freedom in order to protect that creation from itself.  As the creator of everything, his every action is a manipulation of some sort, so that should not be an issue for him.

You aren't think about what goes one here, how many thousands of times have atheist here said they wouldn't live a life limited by God.
In the end Satan would accuse God of forcing people to do what He wanted, He would ask God what kind of love is forced love, he would say forced love is no love at all, and he would be correct. God allows Satan to do what he does so that those who will truly love God will want to be a part of His eternal plan, and those who do not want to be will not have to be. You know I've explained this at least a couple dozen times, yet no one considers the truth of this matter. Would you want a wife that was forced to be your wife, would she really be your wife in the true sense, would she do things for you out of love, if you answer no to all these then you would have a slave. God doesn't want slaves.

Godschild Wrote:Not when they thought they owned God and that He wouldn't do anything about their sin, they were special after all. They must have believe they were so special God wouldn't punish them.

Quote:Why would they think that?  God had been working with them, talking with them, guiding them.  He explained the deal with the tree very specifically.  Do you believe that they were unable to comprehend the concept of death or the concept of lies?  Eve fell for a lie so easily, and ignored death as a consequence.  Is this because she was unprepared for the situation she was put in?

I'm sure I was referring to the Israelites in my above statement but, we'll apply it to Adam and Eve if you wish. First off you must have been listening to the things I said about Adam and Eve, your the only on who recognize that the evening walks God took with them was more than a stroll in the park, you're are correct that God was teaching them. Yes I do believe they understood what death meant as for lies I do not believe they understood what deception is, that to me would have been a knowledge that came from the tree. However they did not need to understand to obey God, like you said He had taught them and truth would be something they would know came from God. No she was prepared, her free will of self interest was allowed to override he teachings, it's the same thing Lucifer talked himself into. Lucifer believed if he could make such a mistake by his own doings, he could get someone he considered less than himself to do the same thing, unfortunately he was right.

Godschild Wrote:Going out in the rain with an umbrella and defying God are not even close to the same thing. I hope what I wrote above will give you a rational about people and their greed of self interest.

Quote:What I mean is, we know to take precautions.  Yes, men in tense situations may make rash decisions.  Is that what Adam and Eve did?  Simply ignored everything they knew and made a rash decision?  Because that means that our fate for the past several thousand years (and for eternity) are dependent on two people who couldn't handle pressure.

Okay, we'll go from this. No, I do not believe they made a rash decision, they were not under pressure, if Lucifer had pressured them I would think they would have backed off. I say this because of the way Lucifer phrased what he said to Eve. He was careful to make it seem like it was her idea to gain knowledge she didn't have.

Godschild Wrote:You're right, the sin nature that we all inherited from Adam and Eve once they unleashed it from themselves. Explain how Christ was suppose to start His ministry without showing himself to those who wee to carry on the ministry. Jesus told Thomas blessed are those who believe without seeing, He certainly must have meant we would receive something extra because we are not given the physical knowledge they had.

Quote:That something extra would need to be quite extraordinary to be the same as personally knowing god when he came to the earth in human form.  Most of what people describe sounds a lot like coincidence, biased interpretation, or hallucination.  And that's aside from the various different gods or versions of god that those experiences lead people to.  It seems too risky a way to reach people.  Why not have continued to preach as himself for a much longer time?  It would be tougher to ignore a man who had lived, say, 1200 years and written countless books of such stunning brilliance that we could not ignore what he represented.

There's a simple answer here, free will and faith, it's the two things which require love to make it work. Like a husband and wife who marry because they are in love, they do it freely and have faith that it will work because they love each other.
I noticed you said risky. It's only risky for those who refuse to choose Christ. The way the omniscient God did it is very much a proper way for people to chose God out of love. Yes I understand some people choose Christ because they fear hell and Christ himself said we should fear hell, it will be terrible. However those who come to Christ out of fear and stay with Him the rest of their lives do so through love, it's those who lose their fear of hell and do not come to love God fall away. 

Godschild Wrote:I know we've discussed this before yet you keep ignoring it and I do not understand why you do such a thing. God has given us the choice to choose Him in love or to reject Him for whatever we decide, He loves us enough to not force us into His serves but wants us to decide for ourselves. God does not wish for anything, the scriptures use the word desires, wishing is only for those who are not omniscient.

Quote:But clearly he has designed people with a pretty substantial flaw, that even those who know him directly are capable of rejecting him, even in light of the possible consequences.  Depending on how they interpret the Bible, Christians believe that anywhere from 55% to 95% of all people will reject god, even though they have no excuse for not believing.  That's an astonishing failure rate considering the situation.  Do you really feel that so many people are willingly rejecting god when they have such a clear and easy decision before them?

God doesn't see choice as a flaw, in actuality it's a gift, one to be used as we desire. Yes there are a great number of people who will reject God by their choice and suffer the penalty for that rejection. God knows they have no reason to not believe He is real, He does know people will reject Him even if in some capacity they believe He's real. The astonishing thing here is this, that those who do not receive Christ have failed and as you say they are without excuse, the failure isn't on God, He gave us the choice to use, failure falls squarely on people. Is this decision clear and easy for you, it seems not. Many people choose themselves over God, in essence they make themselves their god, and by seeing what many here have to say the choice for them seems to be an easy one, God says only a fool would say there's no God.

Godschild Wrote:I disagree totally with your answer. God calls all and gives us the opportunity to have faith, it's not His fault people ignores His calling and refuse to receive the faith He will give for belief. I'm really confused how you were able to rationalize the answer.

Quote:Well, either we are blessed for having faith without seeing, or god is calling to us and giving us cause to have faith.  Faith without seeing means that we don't have to have any experience with god to believe in him.  If god is giving cause, then there is a basis for faith.  It has to be one or the other, they are exclusive positions.  Does god give us reason to believe, or are we supposed to believe without seeing?

Faith without seeing doesn't mean we do not experience God, sight, physically seeing is what we're talking about here. I've never seen you yet I believe your real because I've experienced you through conversation. When God calls us and we accept Christ and what He's done for us He will give us the faith to believe, we on our own haven't enough faith to believe. The only reason you believe the two are exclusive positions is because you believe a person is to believe without knowing anything about something and that doesn't make any sense. God has given us reason, He's promised an eternal life with Him through Christ, He's promised to redeem us and make us what we could never achieve on our own. God's given us reason through Christ and will call us to Himself to accept Christ and He will give us the faith to believe.

Godschild Wrote:It's not up to people to convince you that God's real, that is what God will do for those who seek to know Him. God knows when a persons heart is really seeking and He will answer. Scripture actually teaches this.

Quote:I include god in the "no one" who has convinced me.  I believed and worshiped for many years, but never found god.

Sounds to me you are like a number of people I've known, you went through the motions until you got tired of trying to do God on your own and then quit, I think you didn't turn your heart over to Christ and receive the faith God has for you. People allow the self to get in the way of having a relationship with God. That's exactly the original sin, both Satan and Adam and Eve fell to the sin of self. 

Godschild Wrote:What evidence, I've never seen any evidence that God doesn't exist, but then since God has revealed himself to me I know no such evidence exists.

Quote:The fact that the explanations for how our world exists and works can be explained without god.  The way that culture determines which god --and even which version of god-- people are likely to worship.  The fact that no particular god has shown up to settle the issue in a world that people feel desperately needs him.  Many other such facts and realizations along those lines.  Everything we know about the universe can be explained without god.  I think that's far more relevant than people seem to think.

I will agree that's one explanation, however it's far from proof, no I can't prove the creation but it is another and actually those are the only two. Culture does decide many gods, however that makes none of them real. The God of creation has revealed himself to me and the only one, so I don't just have reason to believe I know. What science believes has come through assumption, it starts out as assumption and only assumption can be drawn about the creation by scientist by beginning from assumption. No human was there to record it, however I have a God who not only witnessed it but, actually created the universe. Nothing about the beginning of the universe can be proven.

Godschild Wrote:Then you must believe in coincidences beyond any belief I could ever muster.

Quote:That may seem to be the case on the surface, but the more we learn about the world and universe the more pieces we find that fit into a puzzle that doesn't require a god.  

That's a puzzle made by man, one that ignores things that do not fit what they want to believe.

Quote:What we've learned about the development of life on the planet is incredibly extensive, and so far all the pieces fit into a pattern that makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint.  That is staggering.  But most people aren't aware of just how extensive the information has become or how well it all fits together.  For that much evidence to fit that well into a theory that doesn't require god should give most people pause, but they're just not aware of it.

Here is a fact that confounds science and it's ignored because it would destroy all that's believed. There has never been a recorded DNA change, not one observation of added information to the DNA of any species, yes even Darwin's little finches, without added information to the DNA of a specie there can not be an evolutionary change from a single celled animal to man or any other lesser specie.
This conversation is beginning to devolve into a realm of science vs. creation and that's not how it began, I would rather stay on the original points of our conversation.

GC  

(June 30, 2015 at 4:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 8:20 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: If Mark knew nothing of Jesus' resurrection, why did he have the character in his story say the words, "He is risen!"?

Because he was a baker who liked to gender his bread.

Don't like that? Interesting, how you'll find that to be ridiculous, but the guy rising from the dead, that works just fine for you.  

It's time for an honest answer, Esq:

Why did Mark have a character in his narrative say, "He is risen!" if Mark thought Jesus' body was still in the tomb?

(June 30, 2015 at 6:37 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 30, 2015 at 4:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Because he was a baker who liked to gender his bread.

Don't like that? Interesting, how you'll find that to be ridiculous, but the guy rising from the dead, that works just fine for you.  

It's time for an honest answer, Esq:

Why did Mark have a character in his narrative say, "He is risen!" if Mark thought Jesus' body was still in the tomb?

Peer pressure and threats of repercussions

(June 30, 2015 at 6:37 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Why did Mark have a character in his narrative say, "He is risen!" if Mark thought Jesus' body was still in the tomb?

Knock it off Randy. This is not now nor has it ever been a point of contention. I conceded this fact before you spoke a word on the subject by referencing the original Mark as the scholarly accepted first gospel. You keep zinging on the boy's claims, but refuse to acknowledge the points I have clearly made:

1. Mark makes no reference to Jesus' post death activities. Absolutely nothing. Including his supposed ascension with attending witnesses.
2. The credulity required to accept that Mark didn't think these activities important enough to include in his narrative is astounding.
3. We know that later gospels rip off Mark verbatim. Changing out the boy in favor for one or two angels, the women seeing Jesus at the grave, and everything that comes after the 'He is risen!' part you are so passionate about are complete fabrications.
4. The early church understood this problem and had Mark amended.

(June 30, 2015 at 6:49 pm)Beccs Wrote: Peer pressure and threats of repercussions

I say it's a lack of imagination. For Christ's sake, I rise out of bed everyday before leaving the house.

(June 30, 2015 at 6:11 pm)Godschild Wrote: You aren't think about what goes one here, how many thousands of times have atheist here said they wouldn't live a life limited by God.

They are usually referring to a specific god or a specific description of god. No one wants to live under a tyrant, and if they see god described as a tyrant, it's natural that they reject that god. Keeping in mind that until any god makes his existence known, it's hypothetical to them as well.

Godschild Wrote:In the end Satan would accuse God of forcing people to do what He wanted, He would ask God what kind of love is forced love, he would say forced love is no love at all, and he would be correct.

I don't think he would be correct. I don't see why god would give us the ability to turn away from him if the only possible outcome of that is eternal torment. It's a pretty fine line between offering that and forcing us to obey. How free can we really be when one of the two choices ends in the worst possible outcome?

Godschild Wrote:Yes I do believe they understood what death meant as for lies I do not believe they understood what deception is, that to me would have been a knowledge that came from the tree.

But this implies that they were expected to obey without question. In the face of deception, their only recourse was blind obedience to god, otherwise they risked damnation. That doesn't seem very different from the concept of forced love.

Godschild Wrote:I noticed you said risky. It's only risky for those who refuse to choose Christ.

I meant risky for god, in the sense that he desires for everyone to be saved, yet implements a situation that he knows many will fail. If each lost soul pains god in the way that a lost child pains its parents, he has placed an enormous burden upon himself, even though it's in his power to change it in a way that makes it better for everyone: him and all of humanity.

Godschild Wrote:God doesn't see choice as a flaw, in actuality it's a gift, one to be used as we desire.

But with a very bad end to those whose desires do not follow those of god. It's a bad choice because god has the capability to save us all if he chooses. He chooses a situation where most will fail and suffer. That is a bad setup. Why couldn't we have the freedom to choose anything except to reject god? Is it really a bad thing to be incapable of choosing only the things that would be bad for us? Would world be a worse place if no one felt the urge to hurt one another?

Godschild Wrote:Sounds to me you are like a number of people I've known, you went through the motions until you got tired of trying to do God on your own and then quit, I think you didn't turn your heart over to Christ and receive the faith God has for you.

I don't know how to judge my time as a Christian. To the believer, there has to be an explanation that covers what they expect from god, and so it is not possible that I was sincere or that I was doing it the right way. To me, it seems much more sensible to recognize the extent to which we interpret our lives when we want god to be real, and understand that if we have to do all the lifting, then god is either very lazy or not there.

I've skipped over any parts that I don't want to respond to or that I am satisfied with your reply. You can consider those points conceded in your favor.

(June 30, 2015 at 6:49 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(June 30, 2015 at 6:37 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: It's time for an honest answer, Esq:

Why did Mark have a character in his narrative say, "He is risen!" if Mark thought Jesus' body was still in the tomb?

Peer pressure and threats of repercussions

Right. From guys who would die rather than deny what Mark wrote.