I think the word "self" is interesting because we feel we know for sure it exists-- and yet don't really know what it is. As soon as you try to say "The self is X," you open a can of worms: people will disagree with the definition, or prove it's too simple or abstract, or whatever, or dig up special cases that contradict whatever you've said about it. In the end, the semantic storm leaves you wondering if there really is anything at the center of that storm or not.

It's kind of like "beauty" or "right" and "wrong." Those are all very real parts of our lives, and the words are definitely used meaningfully, and yet. . . hmmm?

(July 2, 2015 at 8:44 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I think the word "self" is interesting because we feel we know for sure it exists-- and yet don't really know what it is.  As soon as you try to say "The self is X," you open a can of worms: people will disagree with the definition, or prove it's too simple or abstract, or whatever, or dig up special cases that contradict whatever you've said about it.  In the end, the semantic storm leaves you wondering if there really is anything at the center of that storm or not.

It's kind of like "beauty" or "right" and "wrong."  Those are all very real parts of our lives, and the words are definitely used meaningfully, and yet. . . hmmm?

Yes, even words with specific definitions can have subjective meanings that differ from person to person. After trying to think about what a self was for a few minutes, I came up with something like this, but I may edit this idea in the future while reading other’s ideas: I’d say that the self is an organism, that is conscious, and aware that he/she/it has control of one’s own ‘body’, and is aware that the he/she/it can affect the environment around their ‘body’, and be affected by it.

It is one of the fuzziest concepts going.

I tend to talk about "me" and "my brain" like they are two different things. "My brain tells me this is a bad idea." I know it isn't scientific to talk this way, but the language becomes so difficult and it's hard to otherwise describe what's going on; at least informally.

(July 2, 2015 at 4:53 pm)The Inquisition Wrote: My smart-ass side would ask a believer that makes assertions about the supernatural would be to say- can you give me the exact magnification where I will see angels flying around guiding my cells?

No magnification is necessary, just X-Ray specs

(July 3, 2015 at 1:57 am)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote:

(July 2, 2015 at 4:53 pm)The Inquisition Wrote: My smart-ass side would ask a believer that makes assertions about the supernatural would be to say- can you give me the exact magnification where I will see angels flying around guiding my cells?

No magnification is necessary, just X-Ray specs

I do not believe in X-Ray specs.  When I was 10, I sent all my piggy-bank change in for a pair, and they were just stupid fake glasses with holes in the eyes.  No panties = false advertising!

Firt time post.

Hi all!

Ok. if the true self is either your beliefs and your critical thinking AND/OR your emotions and desires does that mean that a clone with either your beliefs and your critical thinking AND/OR your emotions and desires would also be your true self?

(July 5, 2015 at 11:11 am)chasbanner Wrote: Firt time post.

Hi all!

Ok. if the true self is either your beliefs and your critical thinking AND/OR your emotions and desires does that mean that a clone with either your beliefs and your critical thinking AND/OR your emotions and desires would also be your true self?

We better hope so if there is ever to be human teleportation.

Seriously though, I would have to answer no for the 'privileged access' reason I gave in post #5. I think there is an argument for your conclusion, but only at the instant the clone is created. From there on it is unavoidable that experiences diverge and that there are two unique selves regardless of their similarities.

Is there a 'true' self? Yeah, probably many of them potentially. Whichever choices get made seem to take on a sense of inevitability over time. They get knit into the narrative of who we think we are.

But like in any good story, there can be wrong turns, temptations overcome and risks which are rewarded. We dabble with life choices but only keep some. So how do we choose and how do we know when we've gotten it right? Also, what if anything is at stake?

Interesting question, Salacious.

(July 5, 2015 at 11:11 am)chasbanner Wrote: Firt time post.

Hi all!

Ok. if the true self is either your beliefs and your critical thinking AND/OR your emotions and desires does that mean that a clone with either your beliefs and your critical thinking AND/OR your emotions and desires would also be your true self?

I’m going to say that that’s not possible, but, because I don’t like those shitty, dodging type of answers, I’ll try to respond. Maybe, in theory, if the person had the exact critical thinking skills and beliefs as the other, was attached at the hip to the other, kept awake/alive at the exact instances of both of their lives, did/watched/experienced the exact same things at the same time, then I feel they would both be a copy of each other. However, I’m going to say, “No”, because even if what you are saying is true, as others have pointed out (including myself), I feel a potential ‘true self’ would consist of free will, our experiences, and what we’re exposed to on a daily basis. People, even with the exact same thought processes, will not be exposed to the exact same situations in their lives, and I feel that they will look at the world in a different way. I don’t feel identical twins can possibly have the same true self, because they are not living the exact same type of life, with the same type of experiences.

(July 5, 2015 at 11:59 am)whateverist Wrote: Whichever choices get made seem to take on a sense of inevitability over time.  They get knit into the narrative of who we think we are.  

I like those two lines Whateverist, and your whole response, because I agree that the choices we make, affect who we are. It sounds like the aspect of free will and “Is there free will?” comes into play when contemplating a ‘true self’.