(July 5, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Sadly, there will always be Christians who give bad answers to good questions, but that does not mean that there are no good answers. A better answer to the question would be the following:

Quote:Consider this saying from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount:

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened (Matthew 7.7-8).

By “seeking,” Jesus obviously didn’t mean a merely intellectual inquiry but a genuine search of the soul, a spiritual quest in humility and with a contrite heart. This teaching comports well with the universal salvific will of God (I Timothy 2.3-4; II Peter 3.9).

Of course, God’s providence in each person’s life plays itself out over time. God’s existence may not be evident to someone at certain stages of his life but may become evident when and through what means God chooses. If a person is truly seeking God, he will persist in his search and will eventually find God.


Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-gods-e...z3f2IXMpik

... Why doesn't the bit you've highlighted trouble you at all?

We've had discussions on this exact verse before, there's a regular theist who we had to show the door earlier this year who just loved that passage, and something that he, you, and apparently WLC seem to share in your approach to it is that you all take care to make it an unfalsifiable test. When he was told that people here had sought god in the way described in that passage, but didn't find him, this other theist would dismiss us out of hand: we weren't performing the search correctly, because we stopped searching. But if I can't ever consider the search over, then there's no failure state, just people who didn't do it right, and christians. You can't define a test so that it only has a success state.

What you're saying here is no different from the answers you dismissed as bad earlier: just believe and don't stop.

If the believer wants to understand why the atheist rejects their book quoting, they need to ask themselves if someone of another religion were to repeat the words out of that book, would that convince them? The only difference between the atheist and the believer is that the atheist rejects one more god claim than they do.

Quote:just believe and don't stop.

The motto of the catholic church since 325 AD.

(July 5, 2015 at 3:21 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:just believe and don't stop.

The motto of the catholic church since 325 AD.

The motto of all of religious history. Make up a fictional sky hero and sell it.

(July 5, 2015 at 3:12 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 5, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Sadly, there will always be Christians who give bad answers to good questions, but that does not mean that there are no good answers. A better answer to the question would be the following:

... Why doesn't the bit you've highlighted trouble you at all?

We've had discussions on this exact verse before, there's a regular theist who we had to show the door earlier this year who just loved that passage, and something that he, you, and apparently WLC seem to share in your approach to it is that you all take care to make it an unfalsifiable test. When he was told that people here had sought god in the way described in that passage, but didn't find him, this other theist would dismiss us out of hand: we weren't performing the search correctly, because we stopped searching. But if I can't ever consider the search over, then there's no failure state, just people who didn't do it right, and christians. You can't define a test so that it only has a success state.

What you're saying here is no different from the answers you dismissed as bad earlier: just believe and don't stop.

Let's not ignore the psychology in play here, either:

It's that questions against the faith are the path to becoming an enemy.  Why don't you want to believe?  Don't you want to be like the rest of us?  See how happy everyone else is?  You must not really want to find god.  Pray harder, seek harder.  Keep reading the bible.  Failure indicates a closed heart.  Why are you like that?  etc.

The entire line of thinking is designed to shame those who, try as they might, don't buy into everything hook, line, and sinker from leaving.  It's How to Train Your Cultist 101.  The person who can't find god is bad and defective rather than the religion.  Fall in line or be shunned and/or harassed.  I know that several other members here have harrowing accounts of what it was like to separate from their churches because of the caustic group think that is part and parcel of religion.

That it's one of the go-to arguments apologists resort to really tells you all you need to know about what they're selling.  I've said it before, but P. T. Barnum was more honest.

It's a cultural trap. The whole reason you have people professing to be christian, without actually following the dictates, is because just coming out as an atheist and moving on with your life isn't always easy. Sometimes it can get you killed, or otherwise ruin every relationship and opportunity you have. The best some people can do is just keep their heads down and be very liberal about it.

Don't Ever Question: Just Believe.

If we all went by that, we'd all believe everything that we hear. We'd believe in every religion, and every hypothesis. We'd all live by every contradiction possible. If people just want me to believe and have faith in a single religion, I'd have to have faith in all of them, because they all equally don't make sense. I couldn't ethically choose one, and have sufficient reasoning to back up why I believe one religion over another. They all don't have remotely anything near good evidence that they are truth, in fact, we know that some claims in many these books are false. When an honest person takes an objective look at these religions, and sees things that aren't true in them, and sees that there are many contradictions in them, one must discard that as something not to being taken seriously, and NOT DEFEND IT. Faith=Stupidity. The devil doesn't make you think logically, it's religion that makes you think illogically.

(July 5, 2015 at 1:16 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Just a hop, skip and jump away from Jim Jones.

That far?!? Really?

I have never seen writing on a human heart.

I've dissected them and operated on living ones - no writing.

*Waits for the cries of "Metaphor!!"*