I know most of you don’t believe in Heaven, but for the sake of argument, let’s imagine for a moment that we do. Only if there is a Heaven can I take you to the logical conclusion I point out here.

You may have heard Christians convoluted explanation for why their god allows so much suffering in this world. Freewill, they tell us. In order for us to have freewill, god had to allow us to choose evil. To that we might ask why did god think that it was worth all this suffering to give us freewill? To this, they tell us that without freewill, it would be impossible for man to truly love god

DIGRESSION: Is there not something sadistic about a being that would put others in harm’s way just so they can prove their love? Something insecure, you might say? I‘ll not make that argument here, but keep it in mind.

Here, I raise the question will humans have freewill in Heaven? If so then the same possibility of evil and suffering will exist. What will the consequence be for those who sin in Heaven? What were the consequences for the angels that sinned?

If true love and joy could not exist in Eden without freewill and the possibility of sin then it cannot exist in Heaven. In fact, there will not only be the possibility of sin, but it is probable, even inevitable that many humans will sin in heaven.

Every human who goes to Heaven will know at least one person who did not make it. A spouse, a parent, a child, a friend. The book of Revelation tells us the smoke of their torment will go up before the Lord forever. For the humans in Heaven, this will be a constant reminder of something sinister in god. This will be worse than slavery. The African slaves could not choose their actions and were often forced to smile at the most gruesome treatments, but at least they had the privacy of their own feelings and thoughts. In the presence of a god who knows our thoughts before we think them, we wouldn't even have that. We would be like zombies. If we have any freewill at all, we will seek to be free from such mental tyranny.

At this point, Christians will say that we will be so grateful for the sacrifice of Jesus that we won't want to rebel. Sacrifice alone cannot sustain gratitude. If anything, sacrifice with strings of obligation attached to it evokes resentment.

The smoke of the torment of our loved ones will go up as an eternal reminder to us of what will happen if we sin. Gratitude cannot be sustained under threat. Gratitude and love will die and in their place will arise fear and hatred of this massa who cannot be resisted. Our fear and hatred will be known and surely punished. Since there will be no more sacrifice for sin the only punishment will be eternal damnation. The only way god can avoid eventually having to damn the entire human race is to take away our freewill.

It doesn't help to say that we will be perfect beings who won't have a sin nature that can feel fear, resentment and rebellion. The angels who rebelled in Heaven, not just the ones who rebelled with Satan but also the ones who in Jude left their first estate and married human women, were not descendants of Adam and had no sin nature but they did have freewill. Paul tells us we will be like the angels. If the angels could rebel then we will be able to as well.

Again, if god is able to let us have free will but still keep us from sin in Heaven then he could have done it in Eden and he could have kept the angels from rebelling. When Christians resort to the god can do anything answer, they defeat the god had to allow sin answer.

When talking about a guy that equates thoughts with actions, you know your ability to even think dissenting thoughts is going to be removed. Without the ability to think differently than what the guy in charge thinks, there will be no freedom of thought. You like what he wants you to like. You dislike what he wants you to dislike. You don't even so much as think about disagreeing with him. We would all think exactly the same as everyone else, because everyone thinks what Yahweh wants them to think.

I don't see how you can have free will in heaven, there is supposed to be no evil or sadness in heaven.

(July 6, 2015 at 8:05 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: I don't see how you can have free will in heaven, there is supposed to be no evil or sadness in heaven.

The devil was in heaven and told Yahweh to fuck off.

So either that's changed, or it's inevitable that many of us are going to get thrown out eventually. Heck given enough time, all of us are going to screw up and get thrown out, unless Yahweh only kicks you out for trying to depose him.

(July 6, 2015 at 9:46 pm)KUSA Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 8:05 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: I don't see how you can have free will in heaven, there is supposed to be no evil or sadness in heaven.

The devil was in heaven and told Yahweh to fuck off.

Probably didn't like the music.

Negative.

Only folks presumably that always agree with God get to go to heaven, so the question is kinda mootish.  Those selected will think they have freewill, but the selection process insures only the ones that always  make the right choices get in.

I'm assuming there is a latin term for this sort of thing I'm unaware of . . .

The bible says we will have no free will but a eternity of happiness with no thought and ass kissing god.

This is massive hole in the bogus "free will" argument which I've never heard properly addressed.

I'd be very impressed if any theists can write something coherent about this. The "preparation" argument falls flat when you consider kids that get killed at a young age but make it to heaven before having learned squat.

Just like God, it's a concept I think theists just don't have to think about too deeply because it's of no actual relevance to reality so never gets challenged.

I have my own version of "heaven" in my imagination, where everyone does have free will and there is no suffering. It has virtually nothing in common with what I normally hear about. It would be how things were right now if I'd been in charge instead of whatever bum crack screwed things up so badly then shot off without powering us down.