(July 10, 2015 at 7:34 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Choices are not limited to doing good versus evil. Those in Heaven can still choose between one good or another. By accepting Christ, people start the process of purging themselves of sinful desires, or regeneration, which is completed by our glorification. The following verses apply:

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

But why do we need to be regenerated? Why were we created with the desire for evil in the first place?

(July 10, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(July 10, 2015 at 7:34 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Choices are not limited to doing good versus evil. Those in Heaven can still choose between one good or another. By accepting Christ, people start the process of purging themselves of sinful desires, or regeneration, which is completed by our glorification. The following verses apply:

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

But why do we need to be regenerated? Why were we created with the desire for evil in the first place?

The better question to ask yourself is "Do I need to be regenerated?" and/or "Why do I desire to sin?"

(July 10, 2015 at 9:12 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(July 10, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: But why do we need to be regenerated? Why were we created with the desire for evil in the first place?

The better question to ask yourself is "Do I need to be regenerated?" and/or "Why do I desire to sin?"

And do you believe that is a better question because you are unable to answer Rhondazvous' question?  Is it because if you did, it would show that you are worshiping an imperfect being?

We were not created with a desire for sin. (Gen 1:31 - And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good....) although we have that capacity (Ecc 7:29 - Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.)

Do people have the capacity to sin in heaven?

(July 10, 2015 at 4:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: You left out the rest of the verse because it would prove you wrong and it does any sensible person can set it does. 
Now I guess I'll have to explain this further, though I shouldn't have to since you went to a Bible school. The verses is saying you can't call Jesus Lord and mean it unless you have accepted Him as your savior and lord, which you have not, stated by your own words. You can't even come to know Christ without the Holy Spirit revealing to you who He is, so you might utter in meaningless words Jesus is Lord, what you can't do as the scripture says is to state with convection Jesus is Lord, because He isn't your Lord. You'r trying to play word games that a twelve year old could see through.



When did I say you were a slave, I've always said you have choice, you can't be a slave to God because you do not believe in Him. He can and may use you to advance His absolute will or even to help teach Christians, I've seen it happen here a number of times, for me it was very recent, not through you but another atheist. Jesus isn't hiding from you, He's been waiting on you! As for the scriptures you used in Mark you've not understood it correctly, Jesus said that God desires all to come into salvation and Jesus also being God could not desire any to go to hell, including you.



That's correct we do and it's true, as I said before in this conversation if you had freewill you could override God's absolute will and that just not going to happen. God gave free choice before sin entered this world, it wasn't choice that brought sin into this world it was using choice to disobey God that brought sin into this world. Funny thing, you say you have no use for the Bible, yet you waste your life arguing against it, to me that's not very logical.Let's talk about misinterpreting scriptures, you do it purposely to gain popularity with other atheist, that's just plain deceitful and not a good way to treat those you refer to as friends. Most Christians make an honest attempt at finding the truth in the Bible and non of us have gotten it completely right. I see the same things in the sciences, some of the past battles have cost people their jobs and credibility, yes arguing over the very same thing, seeing it differently with the same information.

GC

Rhonda Wrote:You are so wrong. No where have I said that I never confessed Jesus as savior. For 25 wasted years I did with absolute misguided conviction believe. You have not said anything here that I have not once said.

We're talking about now not when you thought you were a Christian, 25 years you were playing a game and this is why I believe what I do about you, not trying to put you down here this is what I honestly believe. If you had confessed Jesus as your savior and Lord all those years ago He would have proved to you He was real. If after that you decided you didn't like what you had found, I could believe that and slightly understand what you did. I could even understand your anger at God. You however threw away God as one would trash, claiming He doesn't exist, so how is it you can say what you do about the God you claim doesn't exist, actually why do you say the things you do about something that doesn't exist. That would be like me getting mad at the pink unicorn and throwing a temper tantrum at the very thing I do not believe exists, for me it would be a stupid and foolish thing to do, even worse it would be a total waste of my time. I just can't believe you ever had a personal relationship with God, for if you had you could not in all honesty ever deny His existence, be mad at Him for some reason yes, but to deny something you had a personal relationship with would be crazy.

Rhonda Wrote: Please don't waste time splitting hairs between freewill and choice. But since you insist on making a difference, the exact opposite of what you say is actually true. I cannot choose to fly like a bird. But I'm still free to have the will that to do it.

You are describing choice, not freewill. You have the choice to jump off a bridge and kill yourself, killing one self is not usually considered a willful act as it goes against our nature of self preservation. As you have implied in making this thread that the freewill of this thread would have to be God given, you are speaking of heaven, correct. You can choose to go against God's will and in that act you have freedom to do so, you however haven't changed God's will only chose against it. What you are not free to do is change God's ultimate will, He want allow that to happen. You can choose against your own will, like in the above example and choose to jump, jumping doesn't change your will, you just chose against it.   You can willfully break the law and, you could say it was your will to do so, but breaking the law comes with punishment, you were not free to break the law or there wouldn't be a punishment for breaking the law. So it wasn't freewill it was choice to break the law.

Rhonda Wrote:Until now you seemed to be in agreement with Drich. It's no wonder to me that two people reading the same Bible and claiming to be led by the same holy spirit can't agree with each other.

As far as I know we are in agreement that you nor anyone else has freewill, I have barely read Drich's post on this but what little I have read we are in agreement. I'm not arguing for Drich and he's not arguing for me, we are both arguing that you do not have freewill as with God, which you have stipulated this is the freewill of this thread.

Rhonda Wrote:Decided to leave Mark 4:10-13 alone, did you?

Not at all, I've argued these verses before and to the best of my knowledge wasn't challenged on them. You would on the other hand, would probably use your child like tactics as with the other verse you brought into this conversation. I'm not wasting my time with you and that mentality, sorry that's just the way it is.

Rhonda Wrote:Use me for his absolute will? Like he used Dylan Roof for his absolute will in Charleston.  No thank you. Since I have a choice, I choose not to be used by that blood-thirsty reprobate in the sky.

Hold on, how did you determine that was God's ultimate will? Dylan Roof is a mental case that made his choice to kill those people because he's a hateful bigot who deserves to be punished to the absolute extent of the law, if I were on the jury and the death penalty was on the table I would vote for it.
That's not your choice, not completely, if or when God uses you it will happen and more than likely you want have any idea it ever happened. See what I was speaking of earlier, you are mad at something you believe doesn't exist, how is that in any way logical, to be mad at something you believe doesn't exist and I do not mean this to be degrading, but doesn't it speak to you needing to re-evaluate yourself.

Probably want get back here before Monday, have a great weekend, talk to you soon.

GC

If and when god uses me..... and apparently consent isn't an issue?  Do you ever pause and reflect upon not just how silly this all sounds, but how depraved? This is a disgusting character you're describing, and you would know it as well as I if you'd been babbling on about anything -other- than god.

Let's all pull our daughters aside. "Hi honey, you know daddy loves you....so there's this person who may use you one day...whether you agree or not, have fun in the corn sweety, good talk". :washes hands:

(July 10, 2015 at 10:54 pm)Pizza Wrote: Do people have the capacity to sin in heaven?

No, and the simple explanation to this, Chad and I both have given, all choices in heaven will be choosing one good thing or another good thing, there will be no evil choices, God's ultimate will for heaven will be absolute perfection, without any faults.

GC

Makes it kind of cheap, if you ask me.  Is that your idea of heaven then, no more bad choices?  A picture of a man emerges.... 

(July 9, 2015 at 1:27 pm)Drich Wrote:

(July 9, 2015 at 12:51 pm)tonechaser77 Wrote: 1.) My view of slavery is not narrow by any means.

Does your definition embody paid employment? no you say? then your definition is not as expanded as the greek word used in the NT to describe slavery.

Quote: It's the same view that others held when they finally realized this is not the way the world should work. I can't believe you honestly expect anyone to believe that people support biblical slavery today by renaming slavery to "work".

That is literally because your definition of slavery is not as expansive as the greek word dullos. Because again the word dullos can mean a paid employee/servant. Matter of fact the word is used interchangeably with slave/servant over 120 times, with contextual preference being the only divider in the text.

In the greek there are 5 different words with 5 different aspects or meanings that we in the English translate into the single word 'love.' the same is true here with the word slave, but in reverse. The greeks have one word to describe 5 different aspects of 'service/employment' in the English.

Just because a literal translation will always translate Dullos into Slave/Servant does not mean that the bible is speaking of the 17th century cotton plantation variety.

Quote:So no, I won't accept your false equivocation. The tenants were far different. The biblical form of slavery was a clear violation to human rights and the consequences for disobedience were FAR more immoral then consequences for disobedience at work under a modern U.S. like society. The last time I checked my employer couldn't beat me if I didn't show up to work. 

Again you are only describing one aspect of slavery.

Quote:2.) The metaphor itself is a true metaphor. The idea behind is what is inexplicably false and should be admonished. The theology behind the slave / eunuch cast system represented in the OT is quite clear in showing the once slave willingly return to his master to become his literal property and be castrated as a eunuch. This is big brother 101 like I mentioned before. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is good. Questioning is bad. 

Ok... So?

You do understand That the Old Testament represents a completely different religion that is no longer practiced anywhere in the world right? That is why in the New testament OT Jews who Practiced the rules and regulations found in the NT were known to have been converted To Christianity correct? And you are aware that The way 'slaves' were viewed and treated was indeed augmented from the Old to the New covenants right?

Quote:3.) If your will is superceded to your master, god, then we have a real problem because i know you're going to start with "knowing god's will" by what he says in the bible. How do you know it's actually his word?

That's a simple question to answer.
I know the bible is God's word, because in the bible are a set of direction for one to literally find and have a interactive relationship with him.
I found and followed said instructions, resulting in promised relationship with the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit that inspired the bible in the first place. it is through the Holy Spirit that God's bible has been verified.

Quote: Because the bible says so.

Actually it happens in reverse order. I know or am given a precept and then verify it in the bible through study.

Quote: But why believe the bible? Because it's the infallible word of god.....

Actually the bible only claims to ever be the truth of God, and the tool used to find God. With in the pages of the bible it never claims to be infallible.

Quote:and here we go with the same old circular arguments.

Uh.. no. try again sport.

Quote:The bible is in fact, the reason I become a non-believer. When it's looked at in the correct manner, conflicting stories, atrocities, misogyny, injustice, cruelty and violence etc. it's easy to see that it is not the inspired word of god, but written by many humans, with differing viewpoints, all of which have been the cause of mass confusion. It's why there are so many sects of christianity. The can't all be right...and how do you decide which one is? Oh I know,  A/S/K.  No, that's nonsense because the answer you receive is purely subjective to what you think anyway. It's an interpretation and who's to say you're correct and the person sitting next to you isn't? 

Sorry Brich but the rationalizations just don't add up regardless of the spin you or anyone else puts on them.

examples?

So how did those wonderful Christians and Jews treat the African slaves in the Western Hemisphere?