(July 13, 2015 at 11:31 am)Drich Wrote: The first four chapters of the book of revelations tells us why the end has come.

In essence the world at large is beyond corrupt/beyond salvation and now the '7 churches' or 7 recognized brands of Christianity have also been corrupt (all except one) and the start of the tribulation is to waken the last of those who can be save into being saved.

Oh yeah? Well I have a book that says the world is supported on the back of a giant turtle, and at the edge the waters fall off the surface in giant cascades, and that if you look over the edge and see what's below, that's the color of magic. Furthermore, I have seen over the edge myself, as the great turtle revealed it to me in a vision, which you cannot disprove.

Check mate.

Well, your book does not address the topic/question asked in the OP does it?

(July 14, 2015 at 9:16 am)Drich Wrote: Well, your book does not address the topic/question asked in the OP does it?

How about you address the reasons why it's in any way moral or acceptable for your god (if he did exist) to murder humans in droves, which he has allegedly done throughout scripture and promises to do again? Oh, and they all went to hell...but he loved them? Bullshit. Your imaginary friend doesn't even love you; he just loves being worshipped by you. How masochistic does a person have to be to pick an imaginary friend like Jehovah?

Oh, you don't have to go to Revelation for cruelty. Even Jesus could tell a brutal story. Remember the parable of the "talents" - - a rich man went away on a journey, (to be made a king) and entrusted stewards with amounts of money that they are supposed to keep safe/do business with/make a profit. The parable notes that there were folks who did not want him to be king and tried unsuccessfully to stop the kingmaking.  He came back as a king, two of the stewards had made him some money, one had buried it and returned it to him without a profit. That steward was shamed and his money given to the most successful steward.  

Jesus ends the tale (speaking as the King - and most people who try to explain this parable say he is speaking of his future self): 

26  "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.
27   But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."
It is also interesting to note, in Luke, that this is the last thing he said before going into Jerusalem for his "Triumphal Entry".    Luke 19: 11-27

But Revelation does give George R. R. Martin some competition.  My mother used to LOVE Revelation 14:20, where angels would use sharp sickles on the unbelievers, and the blood would rise as high as horses' bridles for 180 miles. Oh, yes, Jesus was coming back and she was going to get to watch him kill ALL her enemies and won't it be GLORIOUS?

(July 13, 2015 at 11:31 am)Drich Wrote:

(June 25, 2015 at 7:58 am)Nope Wrote: ]

So, kinder, more gentle Jesus returns to earth and he is pissed. Why? Who know? Some people claim that the ability of two men to enter into a legal, loving relationship will piss him off in a way that all the rapes, child abuse, slavery and murder hasn't been able to do in all of human existence. He destroys a third of humans that would include babies and children.  How is this a better god than the one in the OT?

The first four chapters of the book of revelations tells us why the end has come.

In essence the world at large is beyond corrupt/beyond salvation and now the '7 churches' or 7 recognized brands of Christianity have also been corrupt (all except one) and the start of the tribulation is to waken the last of those who can be save into being saved.

We have lower rates of crime and teen pregnancy while social inequality is growing. The god who you worship does not like it when his people don't help the poor so I could understand why some Christians might claim that poverty and hunger would make their god return. That is not the reason why any Christians who I have ever met has given for their god's impending return. Usually they are outraged that two men can marry or that women are in control of their sexuality. Many are upset over abortion, something the bible doesn't mention as a sin.

So, why do you believe the world has grown so corrupt or do you believe it is corrupt?

As an atheist, I see the problems but I view them as fixable. We can address poverty and figure out ways to improve lives. It takes time and there aren't easy answers but eventually, I think life will improve for all of humanity. There is no need for a god to destroy everyone or to separate people into groups of us and them.

(July 16, 2015 at 7:52 am)Nope Wrote: We have lower rates of crime and teen pregnancy while social inequality is growing.

define social inequality.
Because if you define it as the dictionary does, then I would have you just look at American History.

Quote: The god who you worship does not like it when his people don't help the poor so I could understand why some Christians might claim that poverty and hunger would make their god return. That is not the reason why any Christians who I have ever met has given for their god's impending return. Usually they are outraged that two men can marry or that women are in control of their sexuality.

God's wrath has always been reserved when iniquity seeds itself deep with in man's heart. Look at the books of judges. They are a collection of Israel's sin, God's wrath and repentance and then restoration, over and over again..

The biggest problem/corruption concerning things like Homosexuality, is 'man' has replaced God's righteousness with his own 'morality.' So something like homosexuality is no longer a sin. If it is not a sin then their will never be repentance. If their is no repentance their can be no redemption, if we will not be redeemed then God will pour out His wrath upon us. If this pattern of replacing God's Righteousness with our morality infects the church then, the world is lost. At which point will trigger then events described in the book of revelation. That is what the first two chapters are about. Christ laying judgement on the 7 churches/forms of Christanity He recognized. Of the 7 one one remained true to His calling. This one church is not going to be enough to save Humanity.

Quote: Many are upset over abortion, something the bible doesn't mention as a sin.

So.. Killing babies is not a sin to you? What about where Jesus says it will be far better for one to have never been born than to have harmed a 'little one?'

Quote:So, why do you believe the world has grown so corrupt or do you believe it is corrupt?

It's corruption was always a constant. It was however balanced out by the church. In Revelation now the church has gone over to the 'dark side.'

Quote:As an atheist, I see the problems but I view them as fixable. We can address poverty and figure out ways to improve lives. It takes time and there aren't easy answers but eventually, I think life will improve for all of humanity. There is no need for a god to destroy everyone or to separate people into groups of us and them.

The reason God destroys the earth is because man can no longer be redeemed. At which point everyone from that point on (or in the near future) will be born without a chance to enter Heaven. So God puts an end to the foolishness of man.

(July 14, 2015 at 9:28 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(July 14, 2015 at 9:16 am)Drich Wrote: Well, your book does not address the topic/question asked in the OP does it?

How about you address the reasons why it's in any way moral or acceptable for your god (if he did exist) to murder humans in droves, which he has allegedly done throughout scripture and promises to do again? Oh, and they all went to hell...but he loved them? Bullshit. Your imaginary friend doesn't even love you; he just loves being worshipped by you. How masochistic does a person have to be to pick an imaginary friend like Jehovah?

Your right, God does not love everyone. The bible never claimes that He does. Matter of fact it says the oppsite. That there are those in whom God hates. Couple that with the number of parables Jesus told about seperating His followers from those who follow evil, their can be no doubt that 'we' are not all His Children.

That said, who among us can Judge, label and kill (unless directed by God) someone looking to harm God's children? That is why 'we' can not kill one another without permission.

With man, our deeds have intrinsic value. meaning the deeds we do themselves are what are judged. With God the actions taken are not ascribed any 'moralistic' value in of themselves. What gives a given deed a 'moral value' is what God's intentions are.

(July 15, 2015 at 8:18 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Oh, you don't have to go to Revelation for cruelty. Even Jesus could tell a brutal story. Remember the parable of the "talents" - - a rich man went away on a journey, (to be made a king) and entrusted stewards with amounts of money that they are supposed to keep safe/do business with/make a profit. The parable notes that there were folks who did not want him to be king and tried unsuccessfully to stop the kingmaking.  He came back as a king, two of the stewards had made him some money, one had buried it and returned it to him without a profit. That steward was shamed and his money given to the most successful steward.  

Jesus ends the tale (speaking as the King - and most people who try to explain this parable say he is speaking of his future self): 

26  "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.
27   But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."
It is also interesting to note, in Luke, that this is the last thing he said before going into Jerusalem for his "Triumphal Entry".    Luke 19: 11-27

But Revelation does give George R. R. Martin some competition.  My mother used to LOVE Revelation 14:20, where angels would use sharp sickles on the unbelievers, and the blood would rise as high as horses' bridles for 180 miles. Oh, yes, Jesus was coming back and she was going to get to watch him kill ALL her enemies and won't it be GLORIOUS?

I emboldened the reason you believe this is a story of unfairness.

If the story was about keeping safe what was given you would have a leg to stand on. However the bits of the passage you did not quote tell a different story. The wicked servant was given money to invest wisly, but rather he sat on it doing nothing, even after he admits to knowing what was expected. At the very least he could have put the money given to him in a savings account and collects intrest from the bank.. But he did not.

Even in this servant's failings, the story never says the servant was fired, it simply says what he failed to invest was taken from him and given to the one who invest properly. i would have fired that guy, but Christ doesn't take way his salvation, just his 'wealth' in heaven.

(July 20, 2015 at 9:17 am)Drich Wrote:

(July 15, 2015 at 8:18 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Oh, you don't have to go to Revelation for cruelty. Even Jesus could tell a brutal story. Remember the parable of the "talents" - - a rich man went away on a journey, (to be made a king) and entrusted stewards with amounts of money that they are supposed to keep safe/do business with/make a profit. The parable notes that there were folks who did not want him to be king and tried unsuccessfully to stop the kingmaking.  He came back as a king, two of the stewards had made him some money, one had buried it and returned it to him without a profit. That steward was shamed and his money given to the most successful steward.  

Jesus ends the tale (speaking as the King - and most people who try to explain this parable say he is speaking of his future self): 

26  "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.
27   But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."
It is also interesting to note, in Luke, that this is the last thing he said before going into Jerusalem for his "Triumphal Entry".    Luke 19: 11-27

But Revelation does give George R. R. Martin some competition.  My mother used to LOVE Revelation 14:20, where angels would use sharp sickles on the unbelievers, and the blood would rise as high as horses' bridles for 180 miles. Oh, yes, Jesus was coming back and she was going to get to watch him kill ALL her enemies and won't it be GLORIOUS?

I emboldened the reason you believe this is a story of unfairness.

If the story was about keeping safe what was given you would have a leg to stand on. However the bits of the passage you did not quote tell a different story. The wicked servant was given money to invest wisly, but rather he sat on it doing nothing, even after he admits to knowing what was expected. At the very least he could have put the money given to him in a savings account and collects intrest from the bank.. But he did not.

Even in this servant's failings, the story never says the servant was fired, it simply says what he failed to invest was taken from him and given to the one who invest properly. i would have fired that guy, but Christ doesn't take way his salvation, just his 'wealth' in heaven.

Drich: Is English your 3rd or 4th language? If so, then we should ignore the incomprehensible sentences and misspellings. 

Luke 19: 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.  
(no instructions to make money here)
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

Jesus was supposed to be such a scholar of the law . . . yet he is ignoring the 18 instances in the "Old Testament" that declare usury (charging interest/making money by loaning money) to be a sin?

Of course, it is absolutely silly to be debating Bible passages in this forum. The book is the worst piece of literary shite ever created by humankind. It is full of lies and absurdities from beginning to end. It has been used to support and encourage evil in a way that no other tome has - including the Koran. And Jesus could come in the flesh and tell this to most Xtians, and they would crucify him all over again.

The Kindergarten God of the Old Testament