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The 'old testament' argument
#1
The 'old testament' argument
This is a question for theists. I often come to a point in discussion with religious people where I start pointing out horrendous bible versus. They usually say something along the line of 'oh but that was in the old testament so it doesn't matter'. What?? Its the word of GOD but it is irrelevant? So god came back and changed his mind?? He created the universe but as soon as social norms change so do his? What is the rationale behind this? Thanks.
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#2
RE: The 'old testament' argument
(March 12, 2013 at 11:47 am)iameatingjam Wrote: This is a question for theists. I often come to a point in discussion with religious people where I start pointing out horrendous bible versus. They usually say something along the line of 'oh but that was in the old testament so it doesn't matter'. What?? Its the word of GOD but it is irrelevant? So god came back and changed his mind?? He created the universe but as soon as social norms change so do his? What is the rationale behind this? Thanks.

The argument would probably be that those actions and laws applied to that time and place, not that god changed his mind but that he acted differently in a different circumstance.


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#3
RE: The 'old testament' argument
The argument usually goes 'Oh, well that just reflects the culture that the Bible was written in.' Which can handily write off verses that modern Christians disagree with, even as take the homophobic verses (something Christians mostly agree with) to mean that the immorality of homosexuality is an absolute truth--God himself said so, after all!

Others say that that stuff was in there because of the sinfulness of the world and that Jesus fixed all that by sacrificing himself. Which makes even less sense--God gives us a set of absolute truths, but then decides to change them, and for some reason he has to come down to Earth to die a physical death in order to do so. Besides, Jesus himself says in Matthew 5:17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill."

Of course, most are just ignorant of that sort of thing. Many Christians, if you were to tell them some of the more horrible things the Bible says, simply wouldn't believe you.
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#4
RE: The 'old testament' argument
I'm not sure exactly how this fits in, but I know my mother believes Jesus came back to fulfill the old testament laws so that we don't have to abide by them.

...Though, I believe that would nullify the ten commandments and suchlike.
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#5
RE: The 'old testament' argument
It's one of those things that they don't like to think about because they quickly end up tripping over their own balls.

"Jesus" ( or at least the writers who put words in his mouth ) said that

Quote:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matt 5.

Now, soon some dickhead will show up to explain that in Greek this means "fuck it...let's party."
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#6
RE: The 'old testament' argument
So... He, apparently, came and fulfilled it, but says it's not fulfilled and that people should still follow the commandments?

Am I missing something obvious, here?
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#7
RE: The 'old testament' argument
Nope. You're fine.
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#8
RE: The 'old testament' argument
I just don't see how time really means a whole lot to a superior being who

1. Created the universe and everything it
2. Knows what everybody is doing and thinking at all times
3. Can not only see into the future but has a 'divine plan'

You'd think god would exist in all times simultaneously and be aware of every feeling and emotion that will exist ever and make a fair, even unchanging and CLEAR message on what is right and wrong. But no he goes " oh shit they're developing tolerance down there, I better go and modify my universal laws of humanity so I can fit in and all the cool kids don't make fun of me"
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#9
RE: The 'old testament' argument
(March 12, 2013 at 11:47 am)iameatingjam Wrote: This is a question for theists. I often come to a point in discussion with religious people where I start pointing out horrendous bible versus. They usually say something along the line of 'oh but that was in the old testament so it doesn't matter'. What?? Its the word of GOD but it is irrelevant? So god came back and changed his mind?? He created the universe but as soon as social norms change so do his? What is the rationale behind this? Thanks.

The thing with borrowed authority, is that those who borrow said authority are rarely willing to share it with those from whom it was sourced. Imagine for a moment, that you took out a line of credit from a bank to start a small business only to be told that you then had to follow their company memos to the letter. Imagine further, that you one day grew larger than the bank from which you took out this loan. Just how much weight would their next memo carry when it hit your desk?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#10
RE: The 'old testament' argument
Old Testament involves a lot of despicable things, tis true and well covered. Even most christians are embarassed about it as you say.

If the old testament doesn't matter - the simple fact is that it negates the sacrifice of Jesus dying to absolve us of original sin - which is explicitly old testament.

However, let's not forget that the New Testament introduces the concept of Hell.

If we compare a bit of obliteration - murder, rape etc in the old testament.. it gets even better in the New Testament... suddenly your're going to be tortured for ETERNITY. At least being murdered, stoned etc is a finite experience!

The concept of eternal torture for sexual preference, philosophical position, any "sin" etc etc is by far a more barbaric and despicable thing to wish upon any autonomous being than a bit of stoning, rape, murder or bear mauling imo.

Worse still - to inflict that concept upon children. Give me a good old fashioned old testament style Bear Mauling anyday! Smile
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If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
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