Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..

[tavarish]

Theists - how do you determine what's real and what's not? How do you distinguish fact from fantasy?

[Minimalist]

Theists - how do you determine what's real and what's not? How do you distinguish fact from fantasy?

Apparently they do not bother.

They prefer fantasy to reality. That's their problem. Perhaps psychology could help?

[Loki_999]

Was that God? The Bible also says in 1 Samuel that God made Hannah infertile, I think we need to becareful, the Bible was written within a completely different time. We need to be careful to understand the context.

You tell me...

Sorry to quote the whole section, but it appears solja has not read the bible...

1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves [b] and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

12 Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, "Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal."

13 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, "The LORD bless you! I have carried out the LORD's instructions."

14 But Samuel said, "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?"

15 Saul answered, "The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the LORD your God, but we totally destroyed the rest."

16 "Stop!" Samuel said to Saul. "Let me tell you what the LORD said to me last night."
"Tell me," Saul replied.

17 Samuel said, "Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The LORD anointed you king over Israel. 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, 'Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.' 19 Why did you not obey the LORD ? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the LORD ?"

20 "But I did obey the LORD," Saul said. "I went on the mission the LORD assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the LORD your God at Gilgal."

22 But Samuel replied:
"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
he has rejected you as king."

24 Then Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned. I violated the LORD's command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD."

26 But Samuel said to him, "I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you as king over Israel!"

27 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore. 28 Samuel said to him, "The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

30 Saul replied, "I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD your God." 31 So Samuel went back with Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD.

32 Then Samuel said, "Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites."
Agag came to him confidently, [c] thinking, "Surely the bitterness of death is past."

33 But Samuel said,
"As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women."
And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal.

34 Then Samuel left for Ramah, but Saul went up to his home in Gibeah of Saul. 35 Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him. And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel.

[Godscreated]

Godschild, I realize you have a lot of other skeptics asking you questions but I was wondering if you could answer my earlier one about how the OT forbids the consumption of sacrificial blood and the NT requires it. You've answered that the consumption of sacrificial blood in communion is only symbolic but isn't pretending to commit a sin also bad? Jesus said so on his sermon on the mount.

Any other Christians who want to chime in and provide their own answers would be welcome to do so.

Why would Jesus ask His disciples to sin or anyone for that matter, He came to be a sacrifice to release us from sin not to bind us to sin. Jesus never asked anyone to drink real blood or to pretend to either. The drinking of wine...grapejuice and consumption of the bread where and are a symbolic act to remind us of the sacrifice Jesus made for us. If you will go back to the OT you will find that God told His people that it was sinful to consume meat with the blood in it so it is always sinful to consume blood or the meat of an animal that has not been bled out before it it butchered. In my understanding of scripture communion is not a sinful act, as I said above Christ came to save us from our sins, Christ asked us,even commanded us to remember Him by communion and to ask us to sin would be against the character of the One who sacrificed Himself to save us from our sins.

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Cool... a christian who has tried and rejected drugs from experience. Congratulations. It really pisses me off when people condemn drugs without trying them.

Still, i do like them by these days tend to limit myself to the occasional smoke of weed. Can't party like i used to.

Loki_999 I truly wish I had never indulged into drugs, I've had to many friends die from drug use and it really breaks my heart every time I hear about one of them dying. Drug use of any kind is no substitute for living life with a clear mind. Drugs do not make problems go away not even for a minute, the problem is still there when one straightens up and still hasn't been dealt with, the time spent getting high could be better spent resolving problems and gaining satisfaction from overcoming a problem. Now with this said I was not pointing this statement at anyone in particular just stating a truth.

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Theists - how do you determine what's real and what's not? How do you distinguish fact from fantasy?

Fantasy has no lasting effect on ones life where reality always leaves a life long effect on ones life. So for me God is a life long effect.

[Loki_999]

Loki_999 I truly wish I had never indulged into drugs, I've had to many friends die from drug use and it really breaks my heart every time I hear about one of them dying.

Well, don't want to completely derail this thread, but drugs are no different from many other things in life - use them sensibly and you will be fine. Abuse them you will suffer. Alcohol is the prime example.

Most of my friends at university and afterwards did drugs some more than others. Never had a friend die or come close to it.

Sorry to hear you had friends who died from them, guess they just didn't know when to stop.

[DeistPaladin]

Why would Jesus ask His disciples to sin or anyone for that matter, He came to be a sacrifice to release us from sin not to bind us to sin.

Good question.

Jesus never asked anyone to drink real blood or to pretend to either.

Matthew 26:27-28 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

John 6:53-57 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Bold emphasis mine.

[A Theist]

Why would Jesus ask His disciples to sin or anyone for that matter, He came to be a sacrifice to release us from sin not to bind us to sin.

Good question.

Jesus never asked anyone to drink real blood or to pretend to either.

Matthew 26:27-28 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

John 6:53-57 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;

and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Bold emphasis mine.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;

What do you think DP, was Jesus' statement literal or allegorical?

You stated in another post that you "instinctively" believe in a god, although you have no proof of "its" existence.. You refered to the god as, "it" and having a mind. I already know that you don't believe in the biblical God. I'm interested in knowing what you think god/"it" is. I get the atheist, but I don't get the agnostic deist. If there is no communication between God and humans, and there is no inspired "Word of God" shouldn't you have something more than just instinct to go on? Why don't you just choose to make the leap to one side or the other?

[DeistPaladin]

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;

What do you think DP, was Jesus' statement literal or allegorical?

Does it matter? The OT strictly forbids the consumption of sacrificial blood. Jesus admonishes his followers to partake in a ritual that at least symbolically breaks this rule. Since Jesus felt a sin that is thought of, never mind symbolically acted out in a mock ritual, is still a sin. How do you reconcile this belief?

For me, it's not hard. Communion was a pagan tradition brought into Christianity. Christianity itself is the offspring of Judaism and Paganism. But for the Christian, who must believe that Jesus represents the conclusion of OT laws, has a harder issue to wrestle with.

You stated in another post that you "instinctively" believe in a god, although you have no proof of "its" existence.. You refered to the god as, "it" and having a mind. I already know that you don't believe in the biblical God. I'm interested in knowing what you think god/"it" is. I get the atheist, but I don't get the agnostic deist.

It's my sense of awe of nature, including its rather spectacular beginning, and the evolution of the human mind that give me my sense of God. I say "mysterious mind behind the natural universe" because we don't know much about the enigmatic First Cause. I use the pronoun "It" because I'm trying to avoid anthropomorphizing. And finally, I use the qualifier "agnostic" because I recognize that I could be wrong. I try to draw a sharp line between what I believe and what I know.

If there is no communication between God and humans, and there is no inspired "Word of God" shouldn't you have something more than just instinct to go on? Why don't you just choose to make the leap to one side or the other?

I don't take the label "atheist" out of intellectual honesty. Even though I can't come up with any decisive evidence for a mind at work in the universe (my best and most original was my argument from homosexuality), I still am instinctively convinced. Were I to ever be convinced that this is a delusion, at most I would be a "romantic atheist" (one who wishes God were real).

Theism, by contrast, involves a much bigger leap. I'd have to resolve the following:

1. I'd have to be convinced that God desires a personal relationship with me, and yet the favorite mode of communication, prayer, is one way.
2. I'd have to be egotistical enough to think that God, who created the universe 13.7 billion years ago in a project that includes hundreds of millions of galaxies, wants a personal relationship with me.
3. I'd have to believe that God is so insecure as to require my adoration and validation. This is a God who's powerful enough to create the universe but is plagued with feelings of inadequacy and needs a hug. Kind of touching but unlikely.
4. I'd need to reconcile why God would even consider answering my prayers to find a better job or hit the lottery or whatever, and yet ignores the pleas from those starving in other nations.

Having done all that, I'm just getting started. If I can pick one brand of theism, I then have to:

1. Rationalize picking one brand of theism (Islam, Christianity, Mormonism, Hinduism, etc.) over another, considering there's no proof of any for their claims of divine revelation. Prophets only seem to be contacted when they're alone.
2. Figure out why the world was once full of supernatural activity and yet things are so natural today.
3. Resolve all the contradictions and other specific problems in each holy book.

There are probably other mental tasks I'd need to accomplish but that's all I can think of for now...

[A Theist]

[quote='A Theist' pid='100928' dateline='1287844228']

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;

What do you think DP, was Jesus' statement literal or allegorical?

Does it matter? The OT strictly forbids the consumption of sacrificial blood.

Godschild said, Quote:"Jesus never asked anyone to drink real blood or to pretend to either"...

You answered Godschild with this response, using these scriptures...
"Matthew 26:27-28 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

John 6:53-57 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me"...

I was just wondering what your thoughts were. What do you think, was Jesus speaking literally,or allegorically?

You stated in another post that you "instinctively" believe in a god, although you have no proof of "its" existence.. You refered to the god as, "it" and having a mind. I already know that you don't believe in the biblical God. I'm interested in knowing what you think god/"it" is. I get the atheist, but I don't get the agnostic deist.

It's my sense of awe of nature, including its rather spectacular beginning, and the evolution of the human mind that give me my sense of God. I say "mysterious mind behind the natural universe" because we don't know much about the enigmatic First Cause. I use the pronoun "It" because I'm trying to avoid anthropomorphizing. And finally, I use the qualifier "agnostic" because I recognize that I could be wrong. I try to draw a sharp line between what I believe and what I know

... but what do you think god is? What is God, what do you imagine or sense God to be?

If there is no communication between God and humans, and there is no inspired "Word of God" shouldn't you have something more than just instinct to go on? Why don't you just choose to make the leap to one side or the other?

I don't take the label "atheist" out of intellectual honesty. Even though I can't come up with any decisive evidence for a mind at work in the universe (my best and most original was my argument from homosexuality), I still am instinctively convinced. Were I to ever be convinced that this is a delusion, at most I would be a "romantic atheist" (one who wishes God were real)

... do you have that argument available for viewing, I'd like to see it.

Theism, by contrast, involves a much bigger leap. I'd have to resolve the following:

1. I'd have to be convinced that God desires a personal relationship with me, and yet the favorite mode of communication, prayer, is one way.
2. I'd have to be egotistical enough to think that God, who created the universe 13.7 billion years ago in a project that includes hundreds of millions of galaxies, wants a personal relationship with me.
3. I'd have to believe that God is so insecure as to require my adoration and validation. This is a God who's powerful enough to create the universe but is plagued with feelings of inadequacy and needs a hug. Kind of touching but unlikely.
4. I'd need to reconcile why God would even consider answering my prayers to find a better job or hit the lottery or whatever, and yet ignores the pleas from those starving in other nations

...you said, "Were I to ever be convinced that this is a delusion, at most I would be a "romantic atheist" (one who wishes God were real)"...why? If these are issues you don't think would be resolved, then why would you wish there would be a God? If God wants no personal relationship with humans, if he doesn't answer prayers, if he's insecure needing constant reassurance from his creation, ignores the worlds suffering, then what good is a god? Why would you be a "Romantic Atheist", wishing God were real, if "It's" weak, insecure, and limited?

[Godscreated]

Loki_999 I truly wish I had never indulged into drugs, I've had to many friends die from drug use and it really breaks my heart every time I hear about one of them dying.

Well, don't want to completely derail this thread, but drugs are no different from many other things in life - use them sensibly and you will be fine. Abuse them you will suffer. Alcohol is the prime example.

Most of my friends at university and afterwards did drugs some more than others. Never had a friend die or come close to it.

Sorry to hear you had friends who died from them, guess they just didn't know when to stop.

Loki_999 addiction can be quick or it may take a longer period of time but either way it is a horrible and distructive thing that no one ever wants to happen to them, I do not know how long your friends have been using but I can tell you this if they continue you may wind-up mourning over someone that is very close to you. People find many reasons to start using and find even more not to quit, I can tell you this, most if not all will say escape is a good reason to continue to use the only thing about that answer is their escape from life could become the last thing they do.