Does Calvinism make the most sense as far as Christianity Goes?

[Arrogant Christian]

Parkers Tan

As for your ad homeneim attack, I'm going to ask you politely to stop that sort of bullshit.  This is the only time I will do so. We've a had a civil conversation so far, but you don't know jack-shit about me, and in that case making uncharitable assumptions is insulting. I make change in the coin tendered. The nature of this conversation is now entirely in your lap.



I actually didn't mean to attack you, sorry about that. I confused who I was speaking with while answering multiple posts, one reply was supposed to have an attack to answer in kind, but like I said, not to you. You have indeed been civil, and we were having a good discussion. I would like to retract said insult.

[Justtristo]

I am of the opinion that the "Gnostic" Christians came before the "Orthodox", therefore as Calvinism was a *"back to basics" movement. It is no surprise that Calvinism shares a lot in common with Gnosticism.

*In "back to basics", I am referring to attempts by believers in a certain religion go back to what they believe what that religion was originally about. They do this by closely exmaning their scriptures and elimanting anything which they see is either not in the scriptures or against it. is a movement much similar to Calvinism in Sunni Islam.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Fair enough, AC. I can respect anyone who can apologize in earnestness.

[robvalue]

I am of the opinion that the "Gnostic" Christians came before the "Orthodox", therefore as Calvinism was a *"back to basics" movement. It is no surprise that Calvinism shares a lot in common with Gnosticism.

*In "back to basics", I am referring to attempts by believers in a certain religion go back to what they believe what that religion was originally about. They do this by closely exmaning their scriptures and elimanting anything which they see is either not in the scriptures or against it. is a movement much similar to Calvinism in Sunni Islam.

I like it!

Let's get back to what Christianity is really about. A screwed up egotistical bored God making a scripted theatre for himself. But to make it more enjoyable for him, the hapless drones acting out the parts are made self aware so that they can feel all the suffering acutely. Especially the infinite amount in hell for those he has randomly selected to go there.

That's... nice?

Sadly, anyone who says God knows the future as part of his omniscience is actually subscribing to the same idea.

The God character in the bible runs counter to an omniscient God, or even a moderately intelligent, vaguely aware God. But of course it also tries to claim he knows everything as well.

[Arrogant Christian]

Let's get back to what Christianity is really about. A screwed up egotistical bored God making a scripted theatre for himself. But to make it more enjoyable for him, the hapless drones acting out the parts are made self aware so that they can feel all the suffering acutely. Especially the infinite amount in hell for those he has randomly selected to go there.

You know, I never really understood the whole "Hell is a place of infinite and unending torture" thing. The bible never actually describes Hell as some sort of Dantean torture place. It mostly refers to it as the "second death," or "lake of fire." I think the idea sprung up from "apocrypha" that the Catholics believe, one of them refers to it that way, and possibly the popularity of fictions like those of Dante. I think Hell is actually the place where souls are destroyed, the death being "eternal" since you will never live again. The pain used to describe it I would also attest to the process of death. I mean, if you told me you were throwing something into a lake of fire, would I expect it to burn endlessly, or be destroyed? For those who can't detect sarcasm, its the latter lol. Anyone else get this vibe?

[Pyrrho]

Let's get back to what Christianity is really about. A screwed up egotistical bored God making a scripted theatre for himself. But to make it more enjoyable for him, the hapless drones acting out the parts are made self aware so that they can feel all the suffering acutely. Especially the infinite amount in hell for those he has randomly selected to go there.

You know, I never really understood the whole "Hell is a place of infinite and unending torture" thing. The bible never actually describes Hell as some sort of Dantean torture place. It mostly refers to it as the "second death," or "lake of fire." I think the idea sprung up from "apocrypha" that the Catholics believe, one of them refers to it that way, and possibly the popularity of fictions like those of Dante. I think Hell is actually the place where souls are destroyed, the death being "eternal" since you will never live again. The pain used to describe it I would also attest to the process of death. I mean, if you told me you were throwing something into a lake of fire, would I expect it to burn endlessly, or be destroyed? For those who can't detect sarcasm, its the latter lol. Anyone else get this vibe?

You should take a closer look at the Bible.  Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So, if you don't believe in eternal torture, you don't believe in what is stated in the Bible.

[RobbyPants]

Pyrrho beat me to posting Romans 9, the Calvinist's wet dream. Romans 9 is pretty blatant about the elect and reprobate. Of course, other parts of the Bible make it look like choice is super important to salvation. Now, for those of you who were raised Lutheran like me, you'll recognize both of these as part of dual predestination. Basically, you choose God and God chooses you!

If this sounds like a word-salad attempt to reconcile two contradictory beliefs that the Bible simultaneously posits, it is! It's a lot like the concept of the Trinity: is Jesus God or the son of God? Answer: both!

When the logical implications of your theology get to be too much to bear, make some shit up to reconcile them and give it a fancy name! You, too, can get a major sect named after you!

[Wyrd of Gawd]

You know, I never really understood the whole "Hell is a place of infinite and unending torture" thing. The bible never actually describes Hell as some sort of Dantean torture place. It mostly refers to it as the "second death," or "lake of fire." I think the idea sprung up from "apocrypha" that the Catholics believe, one of them refers to it that way, and possibly the popularity of fictions like those of Dante. I think Hell is actually the place where souls are destroyed, the death being "eternal" since you will never live again. The pain used to describe it I would also attest to the process of death. I mean, if you told me you were throwing something into a lake of fire, would I expect it to burn endlessly, or be destroyed? For those who can't detect sarcasm, its the latter lol. Anyone else get this vibe?

You should take a closer look at the Bible.  Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So, if you don't believe in eternal torture, you don't believe in what is stated in the Bible.

Well, actually it only says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tortured forever in the lake of fire.  It says that human souls will be tossed into the lake of fire, supposedly for their second death.  Revelation 20:13-15.

The Islamic hell is where souls suffer all kinds of eternal torment.  It's definitely not a good place.

Zoroastrians believe that bad souls will suffer eternal punishment in purgatory.  

Jesus said that people who don't believe in him will be tossed into the fire and burned.
John 15:6.  Hopefully they will be burned up and not suffer eternal torture.  If a person has been cremated will he fear being tossed into the fire again?

[dyresand]

Honestly, I'm not that up on Calvinism, but as I understand it one of the core tenets is that salvation and damnation are predetermined. Since God is supposed to be all-knowing and all-powerful, then doesn't that mean that he creates humans exactly as he sees fit, and since he's all-knowing, wouldn't that also mean that he would know exactly how every human would act? If he is both all-knowing and all-powerful, then wouldn't it be impossible for any human to have the freewill to change his fate?

I gave it some deep thought and here the premise of it. If you are already destined to be sent to hell there is literally no point in living your life 
if you are already destined to go to Hell because it would be pointless to live a life even if you do follow jesus and or god and still get sent to hell. 
So pretty much your cutting the middle man god and doing it yourself going on the one way trip down. Of course the bible says god will be pissed
he wouldn't have a reason too because in the end you are going to hell anyways.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Honestly, I'm not that up on Calvinism, but as I understand it one of the core tenets is that salvation and damnation are predetermined. Since God is supposed to be all-knowing and all-powerful, then doesn't that mean that he creates humans exactly as he sees fit, and since he's all-knowing, wouldn't that also mean that he would know exactly how every human would act? If he is both all-knowing and all-powerful, then wouldn't it be impossible for any human to have the freewill to change his fate?

I gave it some deep thought and here the premise of it. If you are already destined to be sent to hell there is literally no point in living your life 
if you are already destined to go to Hell because it would be pointless to live a life even if you do follow jesus and or god and still get sent to hell. 
So pretty much your cutting the middle man god and doing it yourself going on the one way trip down. Of course the bible says god will be pissed
he wouldn't have a reason too because in the end you are going to hell anyways.

Well, if you're lucky you can go to the sea or to death when you die instead of going to hell.  But they are all temporary and everyone makes bail on Judgment Day.  Heck, even if you were in hell you could still end up in the gaudy bejeweled golden cube called New Jerusalem behind the high wall but only if you're a member of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.  The name is a big clue that it's a gated community.  In fact it has twelve gates, one for each tribe.  There's no gate for Gentiles so they won't be getting in.  I suppose it's off to the lake of fire for the riffraff. Jesus is big on burning people up.  Their sizzling flesh provides a pleasing aroma.  He really likes that.  Gotta keep him happy for some strange reason.