Evidence: The Gathering

[dyresand]

There is no evidence to support to judo christian god like there is no evidence for the goddess jupiter, thor, loki, kraken, big foot etc.
1. New Testament stories don't claim to be first hand accounts.
2. The gospel the only account of jesus supposed existence contradict one another.
3. No first century evidence that support yeshua
I could keep going on but jesus never existed ever. I said it before ill say it again pontious pilate would have kept a record of someone
named jesus and he would have been in it. Considering jesus was never in said records well put two and two together you will finally learn
hey religion is a lie made up by bronze age goat herders and men looking for a way to con people.

[pocaracas]

So Randy... you got us reading some of Ehrman's work...
Here's where it leads:
http://www.antiochian.org/life_of_thekla

According to ancient Syrian and Greek manuscripts, Saint Thekla was born into a prosperous pagan family in the Lycaonian city of Iconium (present-day Konya in south-central Turkey) in A.D. 16. When she was 18 years old and betrothed to a young man named Thamyris, Saint Paul the Apostle and Saint Barnabas arrived in Iconium from Antioch (Acts 14). Thekla’s mother Theokleia prohibited her from joining the crowds which gathered to hear Paul preach. But Thekla found that if she sat near her bedroom window she could hear his every word. Thekla sat there for three days and three nights listening to Paul preach the word of God. She was parti­cularly touched by his call to chastity. As it became apparent that Thekla was becoming interested in the new Faith, Theokleia and Thamyris went to the governor of the city and complained about Paul and his preaching. To pacify them and the other outraged citizens of Iconium, the governor had Paul imprisoned to await trial.

When Thekla learned of Paul’s arrest she secretly went to the prison, and using her golden bracelets to bribe the guard, gained admittance to his cell. When she saw the Apostle she knelt before him and kissed the chains which bound his hands and feet. She remained there a long time listening to his message of the Good News of Jesus Christ.

And the story goes on and on...
And it seems many people took it to heart, at the time... a woman's tale. But it was a fabrication... and yet... people accepted that tale for centuries.
Parallel that with the tale of women finding an empty tomb... and then we must ask: tales of women in positions of some relative power existed and were accepted... why should your tale of women be considered a legitimate account of real events?

[Randy Carson]

Who bothers to write a contemporaneous biography about someone who hasn't achieved anything yet?

One question, giving you one concrete example: Do you consider the vita Karoli as a 100 percent accurate account of the life of Charles Lemagne by todays standards?

There are of course many such accounts about different persons before and after. I only picked one of the more popular ones. But they all fall into the same category. Biographies. Same as the gospels.

I'm unfamiliar with the work, so I cannot comment.

[abaris]

Right, Randy, you're not the picky choosy guy, are you? Ehrman is a world class expert in your own words, yet you only give us what coincides with you opinion. I wonder why that is?

He also wrote the book forged and I quote.

There were a lot of people in the ancient world who thought that lying could serve a greater good

Which is an accurate description of the work ethics of the time and an accepted truth among historians.

Ehrman again:

Thus Christians aiming to authorize views they wanted others to accept wrote in the name of the Apostles, fabricating, falsifying and forging documents .... No one would take the Gospel of Jehoshaphat seriously. If you wanted someone to read it, you called yourself Peter. Or Thomas. Or James. In other words, you lied about who you really were

These are the main points of Ehrman's book "Forged": At least 11 of the 27 New Testament books are forgeries. The New Testament books attributed to Jesus’ disciples could not have been written by them because they were illiterate. Many of the New Testament’s forgeries were manufactured by early Christian leaders trying to settle theological feuds.

And these claim actually are in accordance with what the scientific community knows about the time and the work ethics of authors in general.

[abaris]

I'm unfamiliar with the work, so I cannot comment.

Which is part of your evidence problem. You have no base for comparison.

[Randy Carson]

There is no evidence to support to judo christian god like there is no evidence for the goddess jupiter, thor, loki, kraken, big foot etc.
1. New Testament stories don't claim to be first hand accounts.

Luke 1
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

John 21
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

2. The gospel the only account of jesus supposed existence contradict one another.

You mean, there was no collusion? Good, I'm glad that's settled.

It is not unusual for eyewitnesses to contradict one another on various points, and the fact that they do so does not undermine their ability to provide useful information about what they have seen. Eyewitnesses to the sinking of the Titanic disagreed about whether the ship broke in two before slipping beneath the waves. Yet they all agreed the ship did sink.

3. No first century evidence that support yeshua

You mean other than

• Matthew
  
• Mark
  
• Luke
  
• John
  
• Paul
  
• James
  
• Josephus
  
• Tacitus
  
• Mara bar Serapion
  

I could keep going on but jesus never existed ever.

Well, you do to tend to go on and on, but you're wrong.

I said it before ill say it again pontious pilate would have kept a record of someone named jesus and he would have been in it. Considering jesus was never in said records well put two and two together you will finally learn hey religion is a lie made up by bronze age goat herders and men looking for a way to con people.

An argument from silence?

"Ben Witherington points out:

About Felix’s successor, Porcius Festus, very little can be said, for our sources are limited to what we find in Acts 25–26 and in Josephus, Ant. 20.182–97 and War 2.271 [The Acts of the Apostles: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary, 717].

Got that?

The sources we have about Festus are limited to Acts and a couple of passages in Josephus.

Now, Festus was an important man. He ruled the entire province of Judaea (more than just the Southern territory of Judea). He had a huge number of subjects. He’s one of the successors of Pontius Pilate. Further, he was one of the few (some say the only) good procurator that the Romans sent to Judaea.

And yet we know only a tiny amount about him." [Source]

Now, if we know almost nothing from history about important Roman officials like Pontius Pilate and Festus, why should we expect that the Romans bothered with any contemporaneous records about someone they executed as a common criminal?

[Randy Carson]

Right, Randy, you're not the picky choosy guy, are you? Ehrman is a world class expert in your own words, yet you only give us what coincides with you opinion. I wonder why that is?

He also wrote the book forged and I quote.

There were a lot of people in the ancient world who thought that lying could serve a greater good

Which is an accurate description of the work ethics of the time and an accepted truth among historians.

Ehrman again:

Thus Christians aiming to authorize views they wanted others to accept wrote in the name of the Apostles, fabricating, falsifying and forging documents .... No one would take the Gospel of Jehoshaphat seriously. If you wanted someone to read it, you called yourself Peter. Or Thomas. Or James. In other words, you lied about who you really were

These are the main points of Ehrman's book "Forged": At least 11 of the 27 New Testament books are forgeries. The New Testament books attributed to Jesus’ disciples could not have been written by them because they were illiterate. Many of the New Testament’s forgeries were manufactured by early Christian leaders trying to settle theological feuds.

And these claim actually are in accordance with what the scientific community knows about the time and the work ethics of authors in general.

I am well aware of the fact that Ehrman is an atheist, and we can start another thread to discuss these issues if you think it is important to do so.

However, THIS thread is about the evidence that we do have, and Ehrman recognizes that the gospels provide far more support for the historical Jesus than some members can stomach.

Do you?

[Randy Carson]

So Randy... you got us reading some of Ehrman's work...
Here's where it leads:
http://www.antiochian.org/life_of_thekla

According to ancient Syrian and Greek manuscripts, Saint Thekla was born into a prosperous pagan family in the Lycaonian city of Iconium (present-day Konya in south-central Turkey) in A.D. 16. When she was 18 years old and betrothed to a young man named Thamyris, Saint Paul the Apostle and Saint Barnabas arrived in Iconium from Antioch (Acts 14). Thekla’s mother Theokleia prohibited her from joining the crowds which gathered to hear Paul preach. But Thekla found that if she sat near her bedroom window she could hear his every word. Thekla sat there for three days and three nights listening to Paul preach the word of God. She was parti­cularly touched by his call to chastity. As it became apparent that Thekla was becoming interested in the new Faith, Theokleia and Thamyris went to the governor of the city and complained about Paul and his preaching. To pacify them and the other outraged citizens of Iconium, the governor had Paul imprisoned to await trial.

When Thekla learned of Paul’s arrest she secretly went to the prison, and using her golden bracelets to bribe the guard, gained admittance to his cell. When she saw the Apostle she knelt before him and kissed the chains which bound his hands and feet. She remained there a long time listening to his message of the Good News of Jesus Christ.

And the story goes on and on...
And it seems many people took it to heart, at the time... a woman's tale. But it was a fabrication... and yet... people accepted that tale for centuries.
Parallel that with the tale of women finding an empty tomb... and then we must ask: tales of women in positions of some relative power existed and were accepted... why should your tale of women be considered a legitimate account of real events?

abaris expects me to be knowledgable about Charles Lemagne; you want me to comment on St. Thecla.

I'm flattered, but you guys are asking a lot, don't ya think?

So, you think Thecla is legendary? What is your basis for rejecting the account above as true?

[pocaracas]

---

So Randy... you got us reading some of Ehrman's work...
Here's where it leads:
http://www.antiochian.org/life_of_thekla


And the story goes on and on...
And it seems many people took it to heart, at the time... a woman's tale. But it was a fabrication... and yet... people accepted that tale for centuries.
Parallel that with the tale of women finding an empty tomb... and then we must ask: tales of women in positions of some relative power existed and were accepted... why should your tale of women be considered a legitimate account of real events?

---

abaris expects me to be knowledgable about Charles Lemagne; you want me to comment on St. Thecla.

I'm flattered, but you guys are asking a lot, don't ya think?

So, you think Thecla is legendary? What is your basis for rejecting the account above as true?

Hehe.... we're expecting your 10 years of catholic apologetics to have worked their magic!

Why reject that account? Because Ehrman says in his book "Lost Christianities" that this account was fabricated and the person who fabricated it confessed to have done so, as indicated by Tertullian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Paul_and_Thecla

It is attested no later than Tertullian, De baptismo 17:5 (c 190), who tells a presbyter from Asia wrote the History of Paul and Thecla, and was deposed by John the Apostle after confessing the forgery.

Do you have any basis for accepting it as legitimate?

[abaris]

abaris expects me to be knowledgable about Charles Lemagne; you want me to comment on St. Thecla.

I'm flattered, but you guys are asking a lot, don't ya think?

So, you think Thecla is legendary? What is your basis for rejecting the account above as true?

No, Randy. You shouldn't be flattered. You should take a breather and reflect on what you know or don't know about history and the work ethics of authors back then. That's why Ehrman's book Forged is relevant (among others of course), since it gives you a glimpse of what you obviously don't know when making assertive claims. That's also why my question on the Vita Karoli is relevant, since it belongs to a genre that is called Vita among historians. Lying for the greater good, as Ehrman postulates, isn't confined to the bible. It's a general problematic that is found in the gospels, but also in every work that has been published back then and for centuries to come. That's why someone being serious about a certain topic doesn't take one source for granted. Knowing the rules of the game is the first step to know how to play it.


So, yes, your evidence is just picking and choosing and you may just as well preach to the quire, since hardly anyone here will take your seriously on that basis. And, Randy. To answer my question about the Vita Karoli you didn't have to know shit about the person in question. Some basic knowledge about the genre Vita and it's problematic would have been sufficient.