How Long Will Christians Wait for the End Time to Come?

[Mister Agenda]

I respect your belief system.  But do not assume your belief system is any more logical than a person who believes in a creator.  Let us focus on your belief system.  Please let me know why you believe that matter has existed forever with no beginning or why you believe that all matter was created from nothing with no creator.  I find that atheists are very quick to attack the belief system of others without knowing their own belief system.  We were designed by a higher power to question the creation of all matter.  We are the only species in the universe with the mental capacity to have faith in a higher power.  I don't think that is by chance but by design.

What is his belief system? (Hint: It's not atheism).

At least we know the difference between a belief system and an opinion on one topic. Theism is also not a 'belief system'. A system has multiple interlocking parts. Athests and theists have belief systems, but those systems aren't atheism or theism.

We have no way of knowing that we are the only species in the universe with that capacity. It's a baseless assertion. And irrelevant to the question of whether or not the universe was created by a supernatural being.

[Mister Agenda]

Why do you place value upon your life?  Would it not be more efficient for matter to stay in its natural state?  It seems like a lot of work for matter to evolve from atoms to rocks to humans with a soul that place value upon their individual existence.  Wouldn't it be easier for our atoms to sit still and starve to death compared to cultivating the land and hunting animals for food?  If there is no creator and our lives and soul are completely meaningless then why don't we all just go jump off a bridge and avoid the inefficiencies of life?

It's the nature of living things to value their own lives. Not caring whether one lives or dies is a quality that Natural Selection culls very well, though not completely.

Why do you suppose we would care for the most efficient condition?

Our atoms act according to the forces that act upon them, they have no care or awareness to prefer sitting still to participating in chemical reactions.

You seem to have atheism confused with a cartoon version of nihilism. Our lives have more meaning because they are finite, not less.

[Mister Agenda]

Are you not capable of deep thinking?  Atheists always hide behind a damn word when they are questioned to state their belief system instead of simply attacking the belief system of others.  It is very easy to attack the faith of others when you are too afraid to even decide what you believe.  Just because you are an atheist doesn't mean you are not capable of thinking about abstract concepts. 

It is not our fault that it is so rare to encounter someone who is not an atheist who thinks deeply enough to enquire, when told that atheism is not a belief system, what beliefs do we actually hold? Perhaps that's because they instinctively understand that atheists are potentially as diverse as theists, and then they would have to deal with us as individuals instead of as examples of a group they want to stigmatize and mischaracterize. Someday, maybe theists will be willing enough to ask an atheist, 'what kind of atheist are you?' that we'll need forums for Rational Skeptics, Bare-bone Buddhists, Humanists, communists, and so forth. But I won't hold my breath.

As a rule, we dissect arguments. If the argument is flawed, that doesn't mean that what is being argued for isn't true, but it does mean the argument isn't actually a reason to believe it. One sound argument in favor of your belief system would be a game-changer. So would being content with your faith and not trying to support it with arguments in the first place.

BTW, it seems you walked into our house, opened by insulting us, and attacked what you supposed was our 'belief system'. Not only did you miss the mark, you did what you're complaining about us doing. Hypocrite much?

[Mister Agenda]

It is much easier to attack rather than engage in deep thinking.  You don't need to get so upset.  If there is no creator then what is the point of life.  Would you agree that a living species that feels pain is different than a rock or tree that doesn't feel pain?  If you agree, then what is the point of that living species ever coming into existence if there is no creator?  Yes, I have a soul.  It is rooted in my ability to hand money to a complete stranger to help them out.  It is rooted in my ability to have a faith in a higher power.  It is rooted in my ability to have free will.  It is rooted in my ability enjoy music.  It is rooted in my ability to reject evil actions that would help myself but hurt others.  Yes, humans have an extremely strong soul that cannot be explained by science.

I hope that someday you think deeply enough to figure out the quote functions.

What is the point of life if there IS a creator?

It hasn't been established that living species need a point to come into existence. The answers for the origin of life aren't completely known, and may never be completely known, being over 3 billion years in the past, but what signs there are point to natural processes as the origin of life.

I have often handed money to complete strangers to help them out without requiring belief that there is a supernatural part of me that will continue living on another plane when my body is dead. I enjoy music and reject evil actions that would help myself but hurt others. Our prosocial instincts reinforced by culture and experience and found in other social animals are not a scientific mystery. They are as much a part of our nature as our more selfish instincts, and come from the same source.

[Mister Agenda]

Again, simply state your belief in the origin of matter.  Then, explain why your belief system is superior to any religion.  You are angry because you realize your belief system is not superior to anyone else.  You have spent a lot of time attacking others because you believe your beliefs (and by the way, having no belief system is a belief) are superior.  It makes you very angry to realize you have zero scientific evidence that your belief system is superior to any religion.

I don't have a belief on the origin of matter, because the origin of matter is unknown. One shouldn't have beliefs about the origins of things whose origin is unknown. There are a number of hypotheses which fit the known evidence and have maths that work, but until such time as enough evidence is obtained to make a particular hypothesis stand out as clearly having enough evidentiary support to accept it as most likely, I shouldn't hold any of them to be 'the true one' in advance of that evidence, which might turn out to lead in a new direction entirely.

Scentific knowledge, unlike religious 'knowledge' has given us pretty much everything humanity has gained in the last three centuries. Every version of God amenable to scientific testing has been shown to lack existence, and the definition of God has shrunk until now the claim is that God can't be detected at all, by any means subject to objective verification. Such versions of God can't be disproven, because all claims about what their observable effect on nature would be have been withdrawn, but so have all reasons to believe any of them are correct, with the exception of bad apologetics which reassure the believer that their faith is reasonable, and which anyone thinking about them critically can take apart with ease.

Not only do I have a belief system, I have multiple interlocking ones. I am a rational skeptic. I am a humanist. I am a secularist. I am a 'liberaltarian'. I figured I'd offer, since you're beating around the bush so much about honestly asking what any of us REALLY believe, instead offering us loaded false dichotomies from which to choose and complaining that we won't take the bait.

[Mister Agenda]

Your belief system is the big bang and a "primordial soup" that existed after the big bang.  There is no evidence to explain how matter and anti-matter (if anti-matter even exists) came into existence.  Your belief system has no logical explanation for the creation of all matter.  Your belief system is not superior to any religion and it makes you very upset and that is why you attack with insults.  I have notices that atheists are very quick to throw out insults when their belief system is challenged.  Isn't this suppose to what theists do?  I seem to be keeping my cool.  Interesting.

I don't know about the primordial soup you're talking about. If you're talking about condidtions on Earth nearly 4 billion years ago, that was a long time after the initial expansion. The expansion/bang is based on scientific evidence and has been used to make predictions about future findings that have born fruit. That it happened is well-established in science, the mystery is in what caused it, and many Christians have a non-testable notion about that. Provisionally accepting what is well-supported by evidence in science is not the same kind of belief as believing that God stopped the sun in the sky for Joshua so he could win a battle because an old book says so. One is belief justified by evidence, the other is faith that humans thousands of years ago were accurately recording events under the guidance of the supreme being of the universe. Trusting that my chair won't collapse when I sit on it based on my vast experience with chairs is not the same kind of trust that someone who trusts that angels will protect them from being mugged has. A lot of people here will say that they have no beliefs, that is because their experience with theists is that they use the term 'belief' so loosely that it shouldn't be used at all except in the sense of holding something to be true without sufficient evidence. I use it because there is no reason why one can't hold something to be true because of the evidence, and the word for holding something to be true is 'believe'.

Humans tend to be quick to respond to insults with insults. Maybe if you had attempted the most basic level of courtesy, you would be having a better experience. Your idea of what constitutes 'keeping cool' is laughable.

[Mister Agenda]

Are you quite capable of reading different replies? Are you able to make a distinction between individuals?

Right now you give this impression.

Another insult from an atheist....shocking.  Rather than have an interesting discussion you choose to insult.  This is very common among responses from atheists.  Since I am such a moron, please explain why your belief system (as it pertains to the origin of matter) is superior to mine.  I may not have time to read your response as I am heading off to church.  I am leading a fund raising campaign to provide food and clothing supplies to the less fortunate.  Rather than insult people I have never met I am choosing to spend time meeting real people face to face and help them with their struggles.  I am not receiving a single dime for my time and energy to help others.  It is purely love and compassion for the less fortunate.  I suppose you would also like to insult my character for these actions as well.  Maybe you wouldn't be so angry if you spent less time attacking others in an internet forum and spent more time showing compassion for others?

Your reply was full of insults, hypocrite. 'Keeping cool'...you're a riot!

You insist on using 'belief system' as a synonym for 'opinion'. It's not our fault that doing so doesn't make you seem very honest or insightful. And we keep telling you that we don't know what the origin of matter is and you keep acting like you can't remember anyone said that. You are clearly not actually a moron, else you wouldn't be able to spell and use English as well as you do, but you're also clearly lacking some quality that many people have that lets them incorporate the answers that they've received to their previous questions into their following questions.

You've been insulting people you've never met left and right. Many of us are equally as charitable as you. I spent my Saturday mentoring refugee children and went to a Unitarian Universalist congregation on Sunday to spend time meeting real people face to face and help them in their struggles without receiving a single dime for my time and energy to help others. It's purely love and compassion for the less fortunate. That you would think we would insult you for your charity is an example of your unjustified malignant bigotry towards us. Maybe you wouldn't be so angry if you were less prideful of your own charity and less cynical in assuming people who don't believe the same things you do are less charitable, compassionate, and loving  than you are. Your attitude towards us is dehumanizing.

[Mister Agenda]

My point is quite simple.  Atheists always hide behind a single word when asked to state their beliefs with regards to the origin of matter/life.  Yes, atheism is not a defined belief system but that doesn't mean you, as a human being, are not capable of having an internal belief system as to the origin of matter.  Atheists always like to attack others for their belief system as it pertains to the origin of matter but they never like to talk about their own beliefs.  Any belief you have, as it pertains to the origin of life, is not superior to the belief system of a Christian or any other person.  There is, and will never be, a natural or scientific explanation for the existence/creation of all matter.  Isn't it interesting we have the capability to think abstract about the origins of life yet we clearly lack the tools to ever answer the question?  We have not better answer today then we had 6,000 years ago.  The big bang is nice theory expect there is absolutely no explanation for what created matter prior to the big bang.

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Several of us have told you that we don't know what the origin of matter is. No one knows what the origin of matter is, and anyone who says they do is deluding themselves. At this time, it is unknowable. If we do tell you what we think, it's like you can't even hear us. Many theists before you have taught us to expect this, which is why we don't see much point in dancing to your tune.

Accepting settled science actually IS superior to believing iron age myths. Doing so has taken us to the moon and fed a billion new people.

The current problem is an embarassment of natural and scientific explanations for the origin of matter. The problem is, that we don't have enough evidence to know which one (if any) is correct. We may never be able to answer with certainty the exact origin of life, but what we have today is infinitely better than creation myths from thousands of years ago. It is not the fault of people that did not have access to the knowledge we have today that their ideas for the origins of things were magical. There's much less excuse for it in this day and age.

[Kingpin]

Just reading this discussion makes me understand why you guys have such a high disdain for theists. Are the majority of theists you encounter like this? I'm just sitting here shaking my head.....

[abaris]

Just reading this discussion makes me understand why you guys have such a high disdain for theists.

Not in real life, no. Here it's more or less the rule with very few exemptions.

You know, it has much to do with what I despise most in real life. Ignorant arrogance. I can deal with stupid, no problem and no hard feelings. But if someone stays willfully ignorant and at the same time assumes to ride the high horse, it gets to me.