It may be so loki, but from there to assume goddidit and try to portray what that god's will is, its a really giant leap.
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Why Atheism instead of agnosticism of some sort
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RE: Why Atheism instead of agnosticism of some sort
November 5, 2010 at 7:55 am
(This post was last modified: November 5, 2010 at 7:56 am by Ace Otana.)
(November 4, 2010 at 11:38 pm)Ervin Wrote: My question to the atheists is why atheism instead of agnosticism of some sort? Because I don't believe in god, this automaticly classes me as an atheist. Also I'm not claiming that there is a god or not and state that I do not and cannot know whether there be a god, so this also makes me agnostic. I don't know whether there is a god or not, and I lack belief in it. I need evidence. I'm an agnostic atheist. Simple. I'd just like to note that I have a very strong lack of belief. As I'm 99.99999+ sure that there is no god. Due to lack of credibility, evidence, logic and reasoning. I consider the whole god thing to be extremely idiotic and so I require extraordinary evidence to support such an incredible idea. God is on the same credibility level as any fictional character that can be thought up. Which is why I reject it so quickly and strongly.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity. Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist. You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
I'm an agnostic atheist, even though I say that I believe there are no god(s) in existence and never have been. I am 99.999% convinced that there is no such thing as a god, but I can't honestly say that I know for certain. That's pretty much the definition of agnostic atheist. I personally find the agnostic part to go without saying, and so I simply identify myself as an atheist.
Others have mentioned the complete and utter lack of evidence to support the claims of god(s) existence (philosophical "evidence" doesn't count, as it is simply mental gymnastics in action), but beyond the lack of evidence... there is the complete and utter lack of reasons to believe. I have never been presented with a reason to believe that god(s) exist that wasn't a form of wishful thinking or that didn't require god to exist (e.g. 'If you don't believe, you'll go to hell'... only works if god is real). (November 5, 2010 at 6:17 am)solja247 Wrote:Quote:Yeah, everything needs a cause except god, are you enumerating fallacies as you post? On this small phrase you conveyed two: a special pleading (everything needs a cause, that cause is god, but god didn't need a cause) and yet again an argument from ignorance (since you don't know the cause, therefore its god, avoiding other possible explanations). Unless the universe is infinite and eternal and it's uncaused then the philosophical argument for god falls from there
Because agnostic means I think there could be a god, and I don't.
(November 5, 2010 at 6:17 am)solja247 Wrote:Quote:Yeah, everything needs a cause except god, are you enumerating fallacies as you post? On this small phrase you conveyed two: a special pleading (everything needs a cause, that cause is god, but god didn't need a cause) and yet again an argument from ignorance (since you don't know the cause, therefore its god, avoiding other possible explanations). Philosophically?? you actually make such an "argument" with a straight face? Philosophically there had to be no uncaused cause. So there.
Here's how I would phrase it. Atheism is a lack of a belief in a deity. Theism is the belief in a deity that is active in the world. Deism is the belief in an uncaused cause sort of god that left the universe to work like clockwork ( for the record most of the founding fathers were deists. Being a deist back then was like being an atheist today in a sense. ). Those are statements of BELIEF.
Agnostic is not a statement of belief, but an epistemological statement. That's a statement about what you KNOW or CAN know ( or at least think you can know ). One could believe that their knowledge is not 100% certain ( agnostic ) but still believe in God and be a theist. One can also be an atheist and an agnostic. Richard Dawkins has a scale in the God Delusion about belief, with Gnostic theists ( not the old sect, I mean, as in knowing ) being number one and gnostic atheists at 7. Everything in between is technically some variety of agnostic. (November 5, 2010 at 11:39 am)The Skeptic Wrote: Richard Dawkins has a scale in the God Delusion about belief, with Gnostic theists ( not the old sect, I mean, as in knowing ) being number one and gnostic atheists at 7. Everything in between is technically some variety of agnostic.I agree with your post entirely apart from the inclusion of this bit. Dawkins' scale mixes the terms "knowledge" and "certainty" without any regard for what they imply. He also likens a "pure agnostic" (the middle position on his scale) to the belief that "God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable." It's a terrible scale for what it is supposed to do. Try this one instead: http://atheistforums.org/thread-3817.html (shameless plug)
I am agnostic in the sense that I cannot be certain that there is no god. Arguments against are not conclusive. However, I don't believe that God's existence is equiprobable to his non-existence, so I'm not agnostic in the common sense of the word. So, I suppose I am a 'probabilistic agnostic atheist'.
Simples.
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology. 'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain 'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln (November 5, 2010 at 11:50 am)Tiberius Wrote:(November 5, 2010 at 11:39 am)The Skeptic Wrote: Richard Dawkins has a scale in the God Delusion about belief, with Gnostic theists ( not the old sect, I mean, as in knowing ) being number one and gnostic atheists at 7. Everything in between is technically some variety of agnostic.I agree with your post entirely apart from the inclusion of this bit. Dawkins' scale mixes the terms "knowledge" and "certainty" without any regard for what they imply. He also likens a "pure agnostic" (the middle position on his scale) to the belief that "God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable." Yeah, that scale seems a bit better. If Dawkins was a professional philosopher it would probably be better. He's a biologist though, so for his philosophical venture in the God Delusion, I was pretty impressed. |
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