Test my belief system

[ignoramus]

But you ARE doing what YOU want!
That's what makes you a good moral person... Not because of the threat of some god.

[robvalue]

Thank you

You are right, that's exactly what I am doing. It's why the argument of morality from evolution is so strong. It would take much more effort for me to be any other way, I'd have to battle myself.

[Pyrrho]

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It's very difficult. I take the assumption that the more intelligent a creature is, the more capable of suffering it is. So I put more weight on the wellbeing of larger animals. Wherever possible I wouldn't harm any animal, but my merest existence causes harm which is pretty impossible to avoid. I would hope that my efforts to help them outweighs the damage I accidentally do.

But sometimes, decisions have to be made such as giving flea treatment to my dog. If I don't do it, my dog will suffer. If I do it, fleas will probably die. Both of those suck, but I weigh the suffering of my dog higher, and I treat my dog.

It is very hard because no one knows what other life forms really experience, so I can never know if my ranking system is accurate. It makes me sad to even admit to it, but the practicalities of life demand compromises, and the "lesser of two evils".

More followups!

If you can kill something instantly, how does that factor into your suffering strategy?

If a Lion is going to eat a baby gazelle, do you have a problem with that?  Try to save the Gazelle?  Feel the lion is acting badly?  

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You kill, what, hundreds? of fleas to make your dog more comfortable?  That's an interesting rationality to place the comfort of a big animal over the life of a smaller one.  

Have you considered looking into feeling of pain/loss/suffering/etc of various animals to develop your behavior a bit more rationally rather than somewhat guessing?

In the case of fleas, it is not entirely certain that they feel pain.  In the case of the dog, it is pretty well known that the dog feels pain.

That said, I think it would be good to try to avoid harming insects whenever reasonably possible, as they might feel pain.  But since they might not feel pain, there might be no problem at all with killing an infinite number of fleas to save a dog from even the slightest twinge of pain.

On the other hand, a flea inherently causes pain for another animal in its lifecycle.  That is a reason to prefer another animal that does not inherently do that.  Of course, dogs often kill other animals for food (or in the case of domesticated animals, typically animals are killed for it by humans, though it is possible to feed a dog a healthy vegetarian diet if one is careful about it), so one may decide that something else might matter more than the dog.


Also, this is not a question of the size of the animal; it is a question of their ability to feel pain and the extent of the pain they are capable of feeling.  Research on the question is at present such that it is not known precisely which animals feel pain and which, if any, do not.  Of course, we know that many do feel pain, but there are many where it is far from certain one way or the other.  It seems unlikely, though, that an amoeba feels pain.  But to be absolutely certain, one would have to know exactly what the necessary and sufficient conditions are for an organism to feel pain, and that does not seem to be known with precision at this time.


Probably though, the following is the most important aspect to what robvalue is doing.  In this case, if the dog were killing the fleas, it would be self defense.  With robvalue killing the fleas, he is defending the dog from attack.  My guess is, he might strike another dog if it attacked his dog.  In morality, there is generally a distinction people make between defense and offense, and in the case of killing fleas on the dog, it is defensive killing.  It would be a different situation if robvalue went out into the world to kill things that were not harming anyone or anything else.

[robvalue]

That's a good point, thank you

I hadn't thought of it that way. Yes, I would defend my dog if it was attacked, with whatever force was needed. In the case of fleas, the force needed is sadly fatal.

Still no theists? Gah. So many are constantly ranting about "atheist belief systems" and how they suck, well here is one, and no one wants to throw a penny in the pond. Oh well!

Thanks wallym and everyone else who has contributed for the questions, and keep them coming if there are any more. I hope I've defended my system as at least fairly consistent.

[henryp]

 I have to draw the line somewhere and "not worry" about the effects of life below that line.

I'm very much in agreement here.  It's a pretty arbitrary line to draw.  My line, for example, doesn't include insects, animals, and a large number of humans.  

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The other weird thing in this, is the focus on pain/suffering.  For example, if a crazy man was holding an anvil over the head of a sleeping baby, he could drop the anvil, crush the baby's skull, and it likely would never know it happened.  But I imagine you would punch him in the nose to keep him from killing the baby. 

How do you rationalize around death that doesn't involve pain/suffering?  Pyrrho above dismissed it as a flea not fealing pain.  Or a flea not being aware.  But those circumstances frequently show up in human existence, and I doubt you'd say "It's okay to decapitate people if they are sleeping" for example.

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Re offense and defense, I think that goes back to the example of the lion eating a baby gazelle. Despite the offense of the predator, we don't consider them evil/amoral.

It almost seems, and you said this earlier, that the dog being yours is the source of protecting it. Which makes me wonder if the pain in that relationship you are interested in preventing would be your own at seeing something you like suffering? Do you feel much sadness, for example, at the idea of other dogs in the world with fleas. I'm sure you'd rather they didn't, but honestly, I doubt you lose much sleep over it.

[robvalue]

I believe every life form only gets one life, so I don't want to take theirs away if I can avoid it. In the case of fleas, I can't avoid it without my dog suffering.

I don't specifically spend time thinking about fleas on other dogs, but yes, the idea of all kinds of life all round the world suffering and dying makes me incredibly sad. So sad that I have to cordon it off under "it happens but I can't do anything about it" or else I'd never be able to function. I'm not saying killing fleas is OK, I'm saying it's the lesser of two evils.

As for my dog then yes, part of the equation will be seeing my dog suffering and the pain it causes me. If you take morality back far enough, it's eventually going to be "selfish" motivations, in that this is the way I think things should be, or the best approximation. When I agreed to become the guardian of my dog, I accepted that I would have to protect my dog and live with those consequences. I'd far rather live in a world with no death or suffering, but I don't have any choice. I draw my lines as low as I practically can, to minimize harm and to maximise wellbeing and happiness of as much life as possible.

I'm not sure what else I can say, I hope I've answered your questions.

[Sappho]

Sorry to join in so late.

What is your purpose in life (why do you keep living) and what do you consider a good (complete) life?

[robvalue]

No problem

For the last few years, the reason I've kept living is my wife and pets. I know how much me not being here would destroy them. In general, my purpose is to try and do my best to help people and animals to be happy and healthy where I can, and to reduce suffering. I give my help and support to good causes where possible. I try and enjoy myself along the way.

I consider a good life to be one that is considerate towards others and helps everyone live a happy and healthy life.

[Sappho]

No problem

For the last few years, the reason I've kept living is my wife and pets. I know how much me not being here would destroy them. In general, my purpose is to try and do my best to help people and animals to be happy and healthy where I can, and to reduce suffering. I give my help and support to good causes where possible. I try and enjoy myself along the way.

I consider a good life to be one that is considerate towards others and helps everyone live a happy and healthy life.

Sounds very valid and noble.

However, I'm still young so in my rebellious moments I must ask why you would do so much good to the world? I'm not saying you should do bad, if that would even exist (but that's not the question now   ) , but why do so much effort to do good, and why make it your purpose especially?

[brian1570]

Hey feller, here's a test: If you don't believe in Jesus than f*ck you!!!




How did I do? Did that sound Christian enough??