Atheism and Hope

[prmptuscerus]

Thank you again for these responses.

Regarding evolution, a topic on which I am a layman so I enjoy the discussion and chance to learn, I would say that I do not claim to know where evolution is headed, but in an atheistic worldview I would speculate it is going no where, There is no meaning or purpose objectively embedded into the universe and thus the process of evolution would not have a goal in mind (there is no mind to have a goal). I certainly don't claim to know what evolution is 'up to'; I believe that it can't be up to anything. It just is.

If this is correct, and I honestly want to be wrong, then the participation in the evolutionary struggle is as meaningless as the evolutionary struggle itself. Being corrected that I do not pass on mental illness but rather the predisposition to mental illness (thank you for the correction), I still find that it follows if one does not subjectively value suffering than those whose genes highly predispose progeny to severe physical defects or mental illness should not be encouraged to reproduce.

It has been mentioned that social darwinism is irrational and abhorrent by another commenter in this thread. I, too, used to hold these positions. I earnestly want to be shown how this is so. I want to be wrong. Yet, merely claiming that I am mentally ill and thus the position is compromised does not constitute demonstrating how these claims are invalid. That is, respectfully, an ad hominem. I am mentally ill, depressed, but I can still be right about claims and I believe, until shown otherwise, that these claims are correct.

Whateverist, thank you for the video. I must confess that most of this went a bit over my head and I wasn't able to ascertain the point. Can you perhaps summarize the post for me? Also, you mentioned that I was given the 'purpose in my creation' to serve. In an atheistic worldview, how can you find purpose beyond something subjective? That is, I do not have a purpose as the existence precedes the essence.

[ignoramus]

Matey, please stick around.
You are asking one of if not the purest of questions. "Why are we here"
The answer is not very inspiring or divine or even exciting. For that, go to your nearest church.
But since we are here, we make the best of the little time we have here.
Life is the rarest occurrence in the universe, you're going to lose it soon enough. We all are. No need to speed up the process.
Try to find a little meaning to have a little fun. That's all. I bet there's a ton of people in worse circumstances than yourself ...You have been acclimatised somewhat.

[robvalue]

Evolution and natural selection need no help, they simply describe what happens. After we include ourselves in it and the new way things work, you can't "help" evolution any more than you can hinder it. Whatever happens, that is evolution, by definition.

Why you'd even want to help a nonsentient natural process, I never understand.

Morality is to do with what we ought to do. That requires thinking about what is important to you. Is the happiness of humans important to you? Do you want people to have a good life and be happy and healthy? If so, do things that help people and don't do things that hurt people. That's the basis of a morality based on wellbeing. It can be built up in complex ways, but that's the very simple beginnings. No dumb religion required.

If you don't care about anyone else's wellbeing, then there's really not much that can be done. No one can make you care about it. All you have left is pragmatism: being nice to people will generally cause them to be nice to you, making you happier. Being shitty to people will generally make them be shitty to you, making you less happy. Doing horrific things will land you in jail.

If you don't care about anyone else's happiness, and not even your own, then things are really bad. Personally, I've been at the stage many times where I don't care about myself any more and want to die, but it's other people's happiness that I lived for. I knew that if I killed myself, it would devastate those who love me. All the good I could do in the world for others would be lost. Any good influence I could have, the legacy that was mentioned, would end. I very much believe in leading by example. Be a good person, and that will rub off on others. They will then be good themselves, and so on. You never know what an amazing knock-on effect you could have.

[The Grand Nudger]

It has been mentioned that social darwinism is irrational and abhorrent by another commenter in this thread. I, too, used to hold these positions. I earnestly want to be shown how this is so. I want to be wrong. Yet, merely claiming that I am mentally ill and thus the position is compromised does not constitute demonstrating how these claims are invalid. That is, respectfully, an ad hominem. I am mentally ill, depressed, but I can still be right about claims and I believe, until shown otherwise, that these claims are correct.

It -was- invalidated, completely, just a few posts back, if you're using evolution as justification. Evolution does not lead to social darwinism, it does not provide the means by which to make those proclamations.   Evolution was pointed to as justification for social darwinism, sure, but the criteria that social darwinists chose had so little to do with evolution that it's pointless to include it.  They may as well have said "These people shouldn't breed because we don't want them too" - which is, point of fact, precisely what they -are- saying.  That they obfuscate by referencing evolution is a ploy.  Social Darwinists once thought that the "lesser races" should be sterilized.  Why is that, what part of evolution supports that?  You think that people who are suffering from depression should not breed, but why, what part of evolution supports that? You're alive, aren't you...so depression is non-deleterious. If you want to use or include evolution in your justifications, then you have to use the metrics of evolution. Depression appears to be a function of a mind that is extremely advantageous, if our population pays a little in depression for the big brain that keeps us relevant, that's more than acceptable in evolutionary terms. Your own personal discomfort is not relevant. Your own personal value judgements are not relevant.

Be a social darwinist, by all means, if that's what you want to do, but stop trying to stuff evolution in there where it isn't operative or required, eh? Hell, you don't need any justification at all to decide you don't want kids. You -are- going to need some, though, if you want to tell others they can't have kids. I don;t think anyone would give you a moments grief for the former, but the latter...that's another can of worms entirely.

I still say that anyone who isn't me shouldn't be allowed to breed, and if my point stands until someone invalidates it, as you seem to feel yours does, then you need to get to work invalidating it. When you're done with that, you'll have to invalidate some other guys opinion that everyone must be -forced- to breed. Or, just maybe, you're approaching this ass backwards?

[Edwardo Piet]

It has been mentioned that social darwinism is irrational and abhorrent by another commenter in this thread. I, too, used to hold these positions. I earnestly want to be shown how this is so. I want to be wrong. Yet, merely claiming that I am mentally ill and thus the position is compromised does not constitute demonstrating how these claims are invalid. That is, respectfully, an ad hominem. I am mentally ill, depressed, but I can still be right about claims and I believe, until shown otherwise, that these claims are correct.

My thinking was very black and white when I was depressed too.

Although I never succumbed to thinking social Darwinism was anything but abhorrent and irrational.

Still though, we don't think clearly when we're severely depressed.

You don't have to keep me anonymous you know. Social Darwinism is irrational and abhorent and if someone is severely depressed that is not an insult and nothing to be ashamed of. I would only be committing Ad Hominem if I said that your reasons for believing in Social Darwinism (if that is what  you are claiming now) must be invalid simply because you are 'mentally ill'. I never said anything of the sort.
Furthermore I never called you mentally ill or even said you were severely depressed. I'm just saying that if you are then that may affect your thinking because we don't think clearly when we are severely depressed, as I didn't when I was.

If someone believes in Social Darwinism the onus is on them to give evidence to support it, I don't need to refute it to find it irrational and abhorrent until such an unethical irrational Ideology has been demonstrated to in fact be valid.

By the way, I'm not getting at you... not at all. I completely sympathize with your pain and I also empathize with what it's like to be suicidal.

I'm merely defending myself here because I don't like to have my comments mentioned without me being mentioned and then accused of the Ad Hominem fallacy and I feel offended if you think that severe depression is anything to be ashamed of. I understand that you didn't directly say that and I also understand that it is somewhat unclear as to whether you fully subscribe to Social Darwinism... but that is why I'm asking now: Do you think that suggesting someone is severely depressed or mentally ill is an insult? It's nothing to be ashamed of, of course. And do you believe in Social Darwinism?

And in future please ask for myself to clarify also, because I really was not comitting an Ad Hominem fallacy or insulting you at all... mental illness is not an insult and it's nothing to be ashamed of. I'd rather you asked me for clarification than mention me as a "commenter on this thread" and what I said but not directly quote me and instead misrepresent my position. I feel somewhat hurt that you couldn't just mention me normally and let me respond normally like everyone else here. If I hadn't been paying attention I could have completely missed my chance to respond to this. I don't particularly want people thinking I would ever be using mental illness as an insult or I would be posting in this thread to commit an Ad Homninem fallacy. "mentally ill" is not an insult, "severely depressed" is not an insult, it's nothing to be ashamed of, I didn't even directly say you were necessarily mentally ill or severely depressed - I was being hypothetical - and I didn't commit that fallacy at all.

[robvalue]

Also, you can make the choice not to have children, for whatever reason, without basing your whole morality on "Darwinism". I don't want to pass on my vulnerability for depression, which affects virtually everyone in my family, or either of my chronic health conditions. If I'm going to care for a child, it will be one of the millions already here that need a home. I wouldn't even want to bring a healthy child into this world, because I think it's a horrible place.

But just because I don't want to create a life which can suffer so much, it doesn't mean I have to go around killing people who I consider to be weak to the species. I want everyone who is already here to be as happy as possible. Our goal (to me) is to be happy, not to become some uber race of superfit scientist warriors athletes.

[Edwardo Piet]

Well said Rob.

Choosing to not have children because you care about what they might inherit from you, is a personal choice and just shows you care: It's miles away from Social Darwinism.

[robvalue]

Thank you

Of course, I'm not preaching to anyone else. It's my choice. I'm not going around interviewing people before allowing them to breed.

[The Grand Nudger]

You let me take care of that Rob.  

"Are you now or have you ever been Rhythm?  No?  Denied!"



I'm also pretty handy with a shovel, and we're going to need alot of holes.

[robvalue]

It is ironic to me that having children is the biggest decision someone can make and the greatest responsibility they can have, yet there are absolutely no requirements for competency or even adequacy before doing so.

Not that I'd want to enforce anything. I'd rather promote education into being a good parent, and putting thought into having children.