French Terror Attacks, scores dead

[Edwardo Piet]

So if it can be done for atheistic reason you don't need the club. I warn atheists too, not to go around claiming "when we get to be the majority, we will treat you better. When Stenger says we are doing it, he means atheists as well. "Atheist" is only "off" on god claims. Not even that word will determine if an individual will act in kindness or violence.

Ummmm nothing can be done for an atheistic reason other than not believing in God(s).

[Brian37]

So if it can be done for atheistic reason you don't need the club. I warn atheists too, not to go around claiming "when we get to be the majority, we will treat you better. When Stenger says we are doing it, he means atheists as well. "Atheist" is only "off" on god claims. Not even that word will determine if an individual will act in kindness or violence.

Ummmm nothing can be done for an atheistic reason other than not believing in God(s).

Huh? Not sure what you are arguing. Evolutionary science says that all of our human behaviors are a result of evolution, and since atheists are human too, that means we are just as subject the full range of human behaviors as religious people. "Atheist" does not denote morality, it doesn't even tell you what the education level of that individual is. I've run into individuals who call themselves "atheist" but stop at "that simply makes no sense". I've met atheists with no college degree. 

You can only argue averages on education, but even then, when any group of humans, including atheists forget that we have done horrible things in the past, that group is far more likely to repeat the same mistakes other groups have. My views on religion do not even make me a separate species. 

When atheists say "we will treat you better" that is coming from a point and time in history being a minority that is where our empathy is coming from, not our common "off" position. But that doesn't mean future atheists will after the current population dies.  We are still one species among many, and humans have always been both cruel and compassionate.

[Longhorn]

What the texts actually say actually matter you know.

That's why Harris ignores all the evil shit in the Bible? And Torah? And that's why he singles out Islam?

They all have vile bits and nice bits. They all have cherry pickers. Extremism is not the cause of violence, it's one of its symptoms. Not a reason, an excuse. Violent people and environments will continue to be violent and nurture hate, religion or not. Any philosophy could end up in its place.

[Edwardo Piet]

What the texts actually say actually matter you know.

That's why Harris ignores all the evil shit in the Bible? And Torah? And that's why he singles out Islam? .

He doesn't do that at all. His first book "The End of Faith" and certainly his 2nd "A Letter to A Christian Nation." demonstrate that clearly.

If  you honestly think he ignores ALL the evil shit in the Bible then you are not remotely familiar with Sam Harris so how can you make such sweeping statements about him and criticize him so much?

[Brian37]

What the texts actually say actually matter you know.

That's why Harris ignores all the evil shit in the Bible? And Torah? And that's why he singles out Islam?

They all have vile bits and nice bits. They all have cherry pickers. Extremism is not the cause of violence, it's one of its symptoms. Not a reason, an excuse. Violent people and environments will continue to be violent and nurture hate, religion or not. Any philosophy could end up in its place.

Huh? Yea if you read only one of his books. Where do you get the idea he singles out Islam? "Letter To A Christian Nation". He knows Christianity once looked like Islam. Islam really is the only religion with the biggest PR problem at this point in time. 

My only beef with him is he tries to coddle Buddhism and the religions of the Orient as if those are better, and they are not. But he's gone after Christianity too.

[Brian37]

What the texts actually say actually matter you know.

That's why Harris ignores all the evil shit in the Bible? And Torah? And that's why he singles out Islam?

They all have vile bits and nice bits. They all have cherry pickers. Extremism is not the cause of violence, it's one of its symptoms. Not a reason, an excuse. Violent people and environments will continue to be violent and nurture hate, religion or not. Any philosophy could end up in its place.

"Religion or not" yea so, we know the west is far less religious on average, even our right wingers don't publicly execute people for picking the wrong religion. But I bet if you stripped the west of secular law, it would not take long for our right wingers to regress back into the Dark Ages.

The west became civil in spite of religion, not because of it.

[Edwardo Piet]

Ummmm nothing can be done for an atheistic reason other than not believing in God(s).

Huh? Not sure what you are arguing. Evolutionary science says that all of our human behaviors are a result of evolution, and since atheists are human too, that means we are just as subject the full range of human behaviors as religious people. "Atheist" does not denote morality, it doesn't even tell you what the education level of that individual is. I've run into individuals who call themselves "atheist" but stop at "that simply makes no sense". I've met atheists with no college degree. 

Atheism by definition is non-belief in God. Being an atheist doesn't motivate violence any more than not collecting stamps or not believing in astrology does. 

Religions are ideological, atheism isn't.

Come on this is basic stuff here. We're talking about motivation here: Certain fundamentals in certain scriptures taken to the extreme can motivate violence. Not believing in an imaginary God cannot motivate violence.

Motivation has to actually make sense. If you're going to argue that not believing in God can motivate violence as much as believing that something violent said in a book is the right thing to do, and believing in it strongly and intensely and carrying those actions out - if you honestly think non-belief, or non-stamp-collecting for that matter, is in any way a potential motivator for violence: Then you may as well say "Eating custard is a motivator for becoming an astronaut" or  "Believing that all ladybugs are yellow is a motivator for shutting one's own penis in the kitchen drawer". Motivation has to actually make sense.

[Brian37]

Atheism by definition is non-belief in God. Being an atheist doesn't motivate violence anymore than not collecting stamps or not believing in astrology does.

I agree, but you are making an argument I am not addressing. "Atheist" is not a moral code either. It merely means "off" on god claims. I didn't say religion was a good idea, I think religion is a horrible idea. But in saying that that does not make an individual atheist automatically good or bad either. Bottom line is that even we should treat ourselves as individuals first. "Off" is the only thing we have in common absolutely. Outside that even we have different ideas of politics, economics and what constitutes morality.

Evolution produces both acts of kindness and cruel acts and always will. It is up to us to remember that.

[Edwardo Piet]

I agree completely and I'm not saying any individual Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Jain, etc, are automatically good or bad either.

[Edwardo Piet]

"Off" is the only thing we have in common absolutely. Outside that even we have different ideas of politics, economics and what constitutes morality. 

But religious ideologies in scriptures taken to the extreme can be very immoral and unethical indeed.

Try taking and following the Old Testament literally and then tell me that shit isn't immoral.

No actually don't try that... please don't. Ever.