Why people are religious

[The Grand Nudger]

To me, the Quran is easily falsifiable because it's attributed to the most perfect intelligence and needs to be without flaw. That said I once upon a time believe there were many flaws. I don't think at that time, I was denying the truth I knew, but rather following what I thought to be true to the best of my ability.

Conversely, if it needs be without a single flaw.......then I would only need to show you a single flaw in the Quran for you to lose any ability to rationally maintain your faith.  Right?

I want you to stare at the screen like i was fucking in it when you type your answer to this question.  Do you think that we would be unable to point out a single flaw in the quran..you and I?  Islam is falsifiable...and falsified...if we find a single flaw?

[Mystic]

Conversely, if it needs be without a single flaw.......then I would only need to show you a single flaw in the Quran for you to lose any ability to rationally maintain your faith.  Right?

I want you to stare at the screen like i was fucking in it when you type your answer to this question.  Do you think that we would be unable to point out a single flaw in the quran..you and I?

You would have to conclusively show it though. It shouldn't be "I don't get what it can possibly mean therefore..it is meaningless". It must be a real flaw. Also study how Arabic language developed after Quran, there were no grammar rules set before then, and it formed after. That said, there is no meaningless words or structure in Quran possible if it's a perfect mind as the author. So why not have a go? Find that flaw and you will utterly shatter my faith.

[The Grand Nudger]

Let's start where you left off then, shall we?  What were those flaws you used to see (perhaps a succinct and non ritual language description of how you overcame that objection internally)? Pretty sure you're the only person that can shatter your faith, btw, lol.

[Mystic]

Let's start where you left off then, shall we?  What were those flaws you used to see?

O man I laughed so hard. You want to me to show you how I solved all the problems I had one by one?

[The Grand Nudger]

OFC not, perhaps the single-most compelling thing, to you.  What was it, then, that you saw as the most egregious flaw?  Why was it a flaw, and how did you overcome that objection?

[The Grand Nudger]

I do assume though, btw..that you -must- have solved all the problems one by one..and in fact checked the entirety of the quran for any possible error....before making such a bold claim.   You did do those things, right...you sat down and fact checked every jot and tittle?

[Mystic]

Well, it was verse 17:59. I thought it said no miracles were sent to Mohammad because ancient people reject past miracles of their Prophets. Then I realized a more logical interpretation which was more consistent with other verses of Quran and hadiths (other then about the specific verse, but about miracles in general), is that it meant since the first people who came to Mohammad with the personal demands of miracles (ie. do this and that or we won't believe you) were meant but they rejected anyways. God would of kept giving into their demands were it not that they already rejected miracles and were just making more and more demands out of their desires. So God reserved the right to not send the miracles as mentioned above as they demanded, but would do miracles on his own terms like the moon splitting miracle and other miracles.

I think the translation of "awaloon" to "ancient people" "former people" is deceptive in that it can be interpreted as first ones and be referring to the first ones who made such demands from the people of Mohammad in which people became aware that Mohammad performed miracles they demanded.

And if we read nahjul balagha, we see the first miracle they demanded was that a tree was made to move from it's place, then split in half, and walk away from each other and return to each other in one piece.

They rejected that miracle and said it was magic, and he was a sorcerer.

That was the most pressing issue. Because before it looked like an excuse as to why Mohammad [saw] didn't have miracles at all, which was an illogical one.

[Mystic]

I do assume though, btw..that you -must- have solved all the problems one by one..and in fact checked the entirety of the quran for any possible error....before making such a bold claim.   You did do those things, right...you sat down and fact checked every jot and tittle?

I've read the Quran over 50 times in my life. I can't claim I know thoroughly, but I've also looked at anti-Islamic sites and the errors they come up with. So I think I have it pretty much covered. But who knows, perhaps you can surprise me?

[The Grand Nudger]

In both cases the same scenario is presented.  In both cases god does (or rather more poigniantly doesn't do) the same thing, for the same reasons.  What flaw are you discussing......this is the sort of thing which helped you overcome your objections and believe in the quran......? Your objections appear to have been as irrational then as your apologetics are now.

[Old Baby]

Personally I think that some people are reluctant to say the real reason for fear of ridicule, or indeed they don't actually know the real reason. They often, intentionally or otherwise, present strawman reasons so that they don't actually care if they get cut down.

Regarding indoctrination, I do understand that most of the time it's probably done because it's felt to be in the child's best interest. I just happen to think that it is totally not in their best interest at all. If it's true, it will still be there when they've learnt how to think. If you're worshiping something that has already started scoring black marks against children that can't think properly yet, then he's more evil than I thought.

I was at a public library about a year ago and overheard a woman home schooling her two small children.  I was a believer then, but still horrified by what I heard.  They were taking turns reading out of their science text book, which read like a more exhaustive version of the Genesis Creation account.  I don't remember everything I heard, but I clearly remember hearing the little girl read "...when God made the mountains..."  Again, I was a believer and I still felt that this was child abuse.  Those poor children are going to grow up with so much prejudice and ignorance about how the world actually works.