'choosing' thoughts.

[athoughtfulman]

Yeah, exactly.

In speculation, the freedom seems to exist. But in the actual mechanics of choosing, I don't think we could choose anything except what we chose. There was always only one choice for us.

The downside of this argument is that people then say that no one can be held responsible for anything. I disagree. Regardless of whether free will exists or not, I believe that people need to be held accountable to their actions. Just because we can suppose that no one is free doesn't mean that anyone can rape and murder whoever they want.

Or perhaps the belief in free will was constructed to keep us from losing all control. Without free will we might do anything, suddenly not bound by rules, because we tell ourselves, we aren't free. But if we believe we are free, then we will feel guilty if we do something wrong, which is a necessity to the successful functioning of our society. The fact that we can actually speculate on free will might be just another reason why we are more intelligent than the animals.

[Edwardo Piet]

Yeah...if you believe you are totally trapped you behave as if you are....

I don't just believe I am free...I know I am - as free as I have ever been...

I have freedom and evitability. I'm just not sure if I believe in 'free will' since I don't know of any evidence of it.

I've thought this stuff through from quite a young age. So I know what you mean

EvF

[athoughtfulman]

Well, I think we've come to an agreement

So I guess the conclusion is that we feel free, but 'free will' as such does not exist, though for the good of society, most people must continue to believe in it.

Or would you like to add something?

[Edwardo Piet]

Well I wouldn't say it doesn't exist....

I would say that I will assume it doesn't exist until I know of any real evidence

I'm agnostic about it as with everything else. Although I'm sure that's what you meant I wanted to make my position clear on that.

Also, I think that you don't need to continue believe it to be a good person and have a good society. Because I don't think I believe it and yet I'm no barbarian. I think the reason why it often shocks people is that they misunderstand the implications of it.

No free will does not mean no freedom in the sense of evitability. And it is futile and useless to worry about not having it if you have never had it and you have as much freedom as you ever really have! Believing in 'free will' gives you no extra powers or anything.

So I think the reason why it would be bad for society is because people misunderstand 'free will'; - or rather, they misunderstand the implications of the consequences of not believing in it.

If I have used the word 'implications' correctly there? Lol. Dunno how else to put it anyway at the moment.

EvF

[athoughtfulman]

Yes, I'm agnostic about it too So I was speaking in assumption.

And it's the people who misunderstand it who I'm talking about. We might not feel the need to go out and kill someone just because we don't believe in free will, and most people wont either, but some will. Some already do. So for now, I will assume that free will does not exist. But that will not change how I actually feel. Just because I don't believe in free will wont mean that I'll become a robot and try to resist at all possible moments. I'm just going to go on living.

I think some people want to believe in free will because it gives them a sense of importance. Remember the Matrix? Neo didn't believe in fate because he didn't like the idea that he wasn't in control of his life. I think what Neo believes is what most people believe. Some people feel like their life would be a lie if they didn't choose to get where they got. They want to feel like they're responsible.

Whatever we all believe, life goes on And there will always be people on both sides to argue their case.

And I think you've used implications correctly We don't believe in free will and to us it's simply a choice, a point of view. To some people, they think it means that everything is lost, that there's no point in living, and so on. Some people are so self-absorbed that the idea that they're not in entire control of their life frightens them to the extreme.

[Edwardo Piet]

Yes.

Though of course in a truly philosophical sense if we believe that there is no free will, then we will not see our non-belief in free will as a choice or point of view lol

I have felt like that so much in the past. The idea that I'm not in control of my life. But now I understand that this "I" that I think of as me...isn't me. Because I am what I am being or doing...all of me, mind and body (although I believe the mind is part of the brain which is part of the body).

There is no one part of me that is "in control". I am what I am. I do what I do. I am being and I am doing what I am doing.

I don't have to worry about being in control. I am controling. Its just that that control is limited and I'm controling it whether I like it or not

Until I have evidence of otherwise anyway :p

EvF

[athoughtfulman]

I think that you've just described true freedom.

I think when we understand that we're not as free as we thought we were, we can start living a true life. Like you said, "There is no one part of me that is "in control". I am what I am. I do what I do. I am being and I am doing what I am doing."

Pending further evidence

[Edwardo Piet]

Right-on!

Almost no left-off.

(ignore me if I'm too weird at any point lol, I like f*cking about with language and checking the feedback (i.e response)).

[athoughtfulman]

Ha, my response will be fine. Screwing around with language is fun. To a certain point at least anyway

[Edwardo Piet]

So its at least possible to understand by some people around here you mean? lol.

EvF