Near death experience of Howard Storm

[scoobysnack]

People who have consumed ayahuasca report having spiritual revelations regarding their purpose on earth, the true nature of the universe as well as deep insight into how to be the best person they possibly can. This is viewed by many as a spiritual awakening and what is often described as a rebirth.

The brain can make anything it wants "seem real."  That people who have NDEs describe them as life changing suggests that the brain treats them as real experiences.  Given that, I don't find it implausible that a staunch atheist might be moved by such an experience.  However, like Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, the sincerity of the conversion tells us nothing about whether the experience in question was of something real.  We're still left with a choice of deciding that the content of the experience did or did not point to something real.  That there is no proof that these experiences actually occur outside the body, I'm inclined to shrug them off as real seeming experiences akin to those people have on hallucinogenic drugs.  Hallucinogenic drug experience is also credited with life changing effects.  That doesn't make the trip one takes on hallucinogenic drugs any more real.

Have you tried hallucinogenic drugs? I've done a few of them, on multiple occasions. Like I said this was back in my youth, and I've seen some crazy hallucinations. The majority of my personal friends are atheists, and don't think anything I'm saying about NDEs are real, so I'm used to it. Saying you don't believe what I do, doesn't bother me a bit. I'm really looking for people that have experiences, and not so much just beliefs.

[Exian]

I racked my head pretty good once. I was out. I fractured my skull near the mastoid process which punctured all three layers of protective tissue surrounding my brain. Some of the blood poured out of my left ear and some of it poured into my skull increasing the pressure. The doc told my family "We need to operate or he's gonna die."

I don't know how you categorize near death, but I would say this is pretty close. I didn't see shit. So there's my anecdote. My word against his.

[robvalue]

A person believing they are telling the truth, and a person changing after an experience, is not evidence that the experience actually was what they thought it was. Just the person believing it was real is clearly enough. Just like people believing their religion is real is enough to apparently change them also, when it's not actually possible everyone making this claim actually has a true religion. At least some of them are projecting their emotions onto experiences. And since there's no evidence ever coming from any of them, it's most likely (to me) that this is in fact always the case.

Personally, I don't care if there is a "God". I'd rather there wasn't an afterlife, but that's an unconnected question. Either way, I try very hard not to let what I want to be real to influence my sceptical approach to claims in general. Certainly there is no proper evidence for any of this stuff, unless it's under lock and key somewhere.

I have no desire or need to claim these things are actually false, I just don't take them seriously as potentially true until such time as there is some actual evidence. Even religious people act this way with regard to everything except their own religion, including other religions, to which they apply a drastic level of scepticism not apparent in their own beliefs.

I responded to the wrong person, but my reply is below.

To answer you robvalue. After I finish reading through the comments I plan to start revealing the conclusions from NDEs including what the purpose of life is, at least from the information from those who have died, told they had to come back because it was not their time, and now alive to tell their story, aka NDE. The only guarantee in life is death, and I'll share what I've learned from those who have passed over into the spiritual realm so you can learn if you want what's important to learn while in the human body. The human body is just a vessel for who we are, and we are here to learn, which I'll discuss later.

Err....

What?

It doesn't sound to me like you've learned anything. It sounds like you are willing to believe whatever fits in with the conclusion you already want to me true. It doesn't matter what these people say about their experiences, if there is no evidence that any of it actually happened. The brain is not reliable, particularly under extreme stress like almost dying.

Evidence is what separates the never ending stream of claims people make from supported, useful conclusions. Evidence should be important to anyone who is actually interested in whether their beliefs are true. That's the crucial part, really. Do you care if your beliefs are true? If so, why do you accept things without evidence when they fit your conclusion?

[pocaracas]

Certainly, people dream... and weird things happen in some people's dreams.
This can be a perfectly reasonable way to dream into belief in demons.

Perhaps these NDE people don't start out as they become advertised, after the fact.... Remember House's number one rule: everybody lies.

Perhaps what happens to them when they're in that state is, afterwards, rationalized and, due to being imbued in the society that they are, their brains find that societal religious explanation for the "experience", given that they can't attribute a non-religious significance to it.
You must admit that there are many more people claiming to just see a white light under such circumstances. Perhaps those others are dressing up the white light with the baggage of their surroundings, no?

Perhaps you are right.

It just seems like someone who is a strong atheist would *want* to try their best to attribute non religious significance to their experience. It seems that would be their immediate, go to rationale. At least this is what I've gathered from talking to all of you. This is why I am considering the possibility that what happened to them was indeed something very very real. SO real that not even extremely skeptical, strong atheists were be able to "rationalize" their way out of it once it happened to them.

Sorry for only replying now... I've tried to keep up to date with this thread while being otherwise engaged (or e-engaged, in this case )

I understand that you would see it as a radical shift in this Storm person's life.
But, as has been addressed a few times, one must question the story from its very beginning.
- Was he really a "strong atheist"? Perhaps, perhaps not. We cannot tell and, from your own account here, only his daughter is on record as saying something that agrees with the father - conflict of interest - the question remains. For a guy that claims to have been so vocal, prior to this event, there is a remarkable silence from his audience. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it does hint to it.
- If he was indeed such a "strong atheist", your observation is correct. He would likely try to rationalize his experience within his own context. That he apparently came out a believer, is indicative that either he is poor at rationalizing it, or that he's lying. Why would he lie? to sell books, apparently... With all the fiction out there, religious fiction doesn't seem like a stretch of the imagination, to me.
So, the whole story smells fishy...

[Catholic_Lady]

Perhaps you are right.

It just seems like someone who is a strong atheist would *want* to try their best to attribute non religious significance to their experience. It seems that would be their immediate, go to rationale. At least this is what I've gathered from talking to all of you. This is why I am considering the possibility that what happened to them was indeed something very very real. SO real that not even extremely skeptical, strong atheists were be able to "rationalize" their way out of it once it happened to them.

Sorry for only replying now... I've tried to keep up to date with this thread while being otherwise engaged (or e-engaged, in this case )

I understand that you would see it as a radical shift in this Storm person's life.
But, as has been addressed a few times, one must question the story from its very beginning.
- Was he really a "strong atheist"? Perhaps, perhaps not. We cannot tell and, from your own account here, only his daughter is on record as saying something that agrees with the father - conflict of interest - the question remains. For a guy that claims to have been so vocal, prior to this event, there is a remarkable silence from his audience. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it does hint to it.
- If he was indeed such a "strong atheist", your observation is correct. He would likely try to rationalize his experience within his own context. That he apparently came out a believer, is indicative that either he is poor at rationalizing it, or that he's lying. Why would he lie? to sell books, apparently... With all the fiction out there, religious fiction doesn't seem like a stretch of the imagination, to me.
So, the whole story smells fishy...

Yes, I did not find anyone talking about him being an atheist before the incident, but I did not find anyone saying he wasn't, either. He keeps saying he was, so it seems as though if he weren't, there would be people saying things like "ummm, no, I knew him. He was definitely a Christian." Or something. 

Not saying he definitely WAS an atheist, just weighing the possibilities. It could be that he is exaggerating about being such a staunch one. Who knows.  

Though we've established that it least probably is a lie because he didn't JUST sell books. If that's all he had done, ok, I could maybe see that. But he did far more than that. He quit his job of 15 years, went to seminary school, became a pastor, and dedicated his life to Christianity. I don't think someone who is an under cover atheist would pretend to be a Christian to that extent.

[Whateverist]

Unless he was a double agent? Perhaps he was always a Christian sympathizer who after some interlude of acting out against his holy father reconciles with his original faith. It seems that half the Christians we get through here suspect that we atheists are exactly that, just Christians in rebellion against god who may eventually reconcile and return.

[Catholic_Lady]

Maybe. That would be contrary to what he said about being a staunch atheist, but like I said... he may have been exaggerating that part of it.

[Whateverist]

Maybe. That would be contrary to what he said about being a staunch atheist, but like I said... he may have been exaggerating that part of it.

Yeah it wouldn't be surprising, after the conversion, to want to paint the process in such a way as to try to win more converts.  Most believers would consider it a white lie.

[Catholic_Lady]

Btw, here's a little bit of that hostility towards people of faith I was referring to:

Besides - even deluded morons deserve some fun once in a while. And christians are masters at dealing with guilt and such. They just go into a magic closet with a man in a dress, murmur some nursery rhymes/magic spells and they can go straight to heaven. So no harm done. 

[scoobysnack]

There is a entire book about his story, but that was the short version. The book obviously has more details which may answer some of your questions. I could suppose one could assume he was never an atheist, I've never done a background check on him. I did meet him when he came to my city to speak, and listened to his story, and he gave me a hug after I told him how he helped saved my life from suicide. He seemed sincere, and even cried a little while talking about the beings that tore him apart and while he was in the void, before calling out to Jesus, and then cried a little more telling his story of how he was so ashamed meeting Jesus after not believing in him and thinking anyone that did was a complete moron. He was so amazed that Jesus would forgive him for all the bad things he had done in his life which were shown to him in his life review, with all his secrets exposed.

If you want you can read countless near death experiences from different religions, cultures, gays, atheists etc. I posted this one because it was one of the more complete ones. The more you read about them, you start to see the patterns, and get the bigger picture. This website has a lot to check out if you wanted to read about other cultures:

http://www.near-death.com/

The thing is, none of this proves there's a portal between our world and any other world. The reasonable thing to think about all this in lack of any evidence is to assume that either a lot of people are lying about it, or it's all simply in their heads. Reading any number of similar stories won't prove a thing. The appropriate scientists have to study this phenomenon and report back on it. Until then, that's all they are - purported subjective experiences.

Why would so many people want to lie about something that happened to them, and face the ridicule of their family, friends and strangers? There are a lot of scientists that do study this and believe it, and many that don't. If you wait for science, you are going to the last to know. Even today, scientific discoveries take a while for to be made public, when they are declassified. It's usually 20 year old technology before the public knows about it.