My views on objective morality

[Catholic_Lady]

CL, I consider you my friend. You were the first one on here to send me a friend request on FB. I have never known you to be mean or hateful to anyone here, even when topics get heated, you keep your wits about you. For that, you have the respect of this community. Even if we didn't see your avatar pic, I don't think that would change anything. You are a genuine person. I base my respect for you on the fact that you really do treat others the way you want to be treated. That and you ooze sweetness. I think if I would know you outside of these forums, I would find you to be a wonderful, sweet and caring friend. One that I would be honored to have in my life.

That's all there is to it.

Thank you so much, that means a lot. Honestly, I was starting to feel really down.

[Catholic_Lady]

CL...
you are defending rape, if you defend the god who allows it to happen. You keep saying you will never know why he does things, because he is god and bla bla bla. You say that you're ok with now knowing. Again. Tell that to the victims. Tell that to the kid who was brainwashed into thinking the god loved her, and when she was being raped by a minister she prayed out loud hoping the god would save her, but it never happened. Sorry, kid. The dude's free will has a greater plan that you can't understand because you're tiny. 

Yeah you think rape is evil and objectively wrong, but yet you defend a god who allows it to happen. Don't you see the picture? I mean, really?

I don't see it that way at all, so I guess on that we will just have to agree to disagree.

 Just know that if that's how you see it, that means that the majority of people in general (since most people are theists), by your definition, "defend" rape and murder and any other horrible act that could ever happen.

[J a c k]

CL...
you are defending rape, if you defend the god who allows it to happen. You keep saying you will never know why he does things, because he is god and bla bla bla. You say that you're ok with now knowing. Again. Tell that to the victims. Tell that to the kid who was brainwashed into thinking the god loved her, and when she was being raped by a minister she prayed out loud hoping the god would save her, but it never happened. Sorry, kid. The dude's free will has a greater plan that you can't understand because you're tiny. 

Yeah you think rape is evil and objectively wrong, but yet you defend a god who allows it to happen. Don't you see the picture? I mean, really?

I don't see it that way at all, so I guess on that we will just have to agree to disagree.

 Just know that if that's how you see it, that means that the majority of people in general (since most people are theists), by your definition, "defend" rape and murder and any other horrible act that could ever happen.

I know that. Yes. 

Now I'm leaving this thread. Rape talk makes me feel sick.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't see it that way at all, so I guess on that we will just have to agree to disagree.

 Just know that if that's how you see it, that means that the majority of people in general (since most people are theists), by your definition, "defend" rape and murder and any other horrible act that could ever happen.

I know that. Yes. 

Now I'm leaving this thread. Rape talk makes me feel sick.

No kidding. Try being accused of defending rape. Then you'll really know what it's like to feel sick.

[Ryantology]

CL...
you are defending rape, if you defend the god who allows it to happen. You keep saying you will never know why he does things, because he is god and bla bla bla. You say that you're ok with now knowing. Again. Tell that to the victims. Tell that to the kid who was brainwashed into thinking the god loved her, and when she was being raped by a minister she prayed out loud hoping the god would save her, but it never happened. Sorry, kid. The dude's free will has a greater plan that you can't understand because you're tiny. 

Yeah you think rape is evil and objectively wrong, but yet you defend a god who allows it to happen. Don't you see the picture? I mean, really?

I used to think such things, that a Christian defending God was a Christian being okay with the things God allows. That really just results in discussions turning into shit slinging. I don't think Catholic_Lady is putting her point across in a way that deserves being ripped to shreds. 

I've done my fair share of this kind of ripping in the past, so it's kind of hypocritical, but I left AF for a while in large part because I disliked how boorish and temperamental I was when things got heated. It got to the point where I felt like I was kind of betraying my own self-perception. That's not how I'm going to be from now on.

[robvalue]

Yes, of course we can still be friends CL I had no intention of things being otherwise. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on every subject. I'm sorry I have upset you, but I'm just calling things like I see them. After this, I won't discuss religion any more with you and I'll stick to other subjects.

I'll say that you don't mean to directly condone rape, but that in my opinion you inadvertently try and defend a guilty party. I don't mean to say you literally mean rape is OK, I know you don't think that at all. My choice of words maybe wasn't very accurate and I apologize. I didn't handle it well.

It's just scary to me that religion can get someone as nice as you to say these things. Of course you don't think there is a problem, because you've had all the excuses hammered into you and that God is good no matter what. It's the religion talking, not you. You are better than it. But you've described a God who watches and allows rape, and you're coming to his defense. If any being watches a rape, and easily has the power to stop the rape, then they are complicit in my opinion. If you don't think that's being complicit, then I don't know what I can tell you. Being "God" is no excuse. In fact, I'd hold him to a higher standard if anything. If the autonomy of a rapist is so important, why would we stop them doing it?

Because we're more moral than the God you describe. You are, we all are. You fully expect us to do what he will not. If you just said you don't understand it, I could accept that. But you decide to come to his defense with actual arguments about free will, and this is where you associate yourself with his (in)actions.

The final point is that you trust this being who is complicit in rape when he says "don't worry, it will all be alright, I have a plan", while he watches yet more rapes he knew would happen when he first set things up. That things can somehow be OK, and his allowing the rape could be justified. Of all the things I would call someone who sets up events so that rapes will take place, watches them and does nothing about them, moral is not one of them. And it makes me sad that anyone would defend such a monster. The fact that he's fictional doesn't change this, because you think he's real.

I'll leave it at that, I don't want to say any more on the subject. I've been too honest and upset you, and I didn't wish that to happen. I should have trusted my instincts and just avoided the whole discussion. So my apologies. However, I respect you too much to lie about the facts as I see them.

[robvalue]

Have I been too harsh

I genuinely struggle talking to theists about religion. I try my best, but it feels like I can either be honest about what they bring to me, or I say nothing.

Being a christian/islam apologist is about defending the indefensible. It's guaranteed to fail. That is a shame, but there's not much I can do about it.

[pocaracas]

ahhh.. the morality of rape and anything that's more regulated than forbidden/decried in the holy books...
Such a touchy subject!

From the atheist POV, things happen because they can happen. Shit happens.
Some people want to rape and some people get raped.
Some people want to own others and some get owned.

If we think that the brain is nothing more than deterministic bio-chemistry, things happen as they have to.
If we think at a higher abstraction level, power of one over the other will be one of the major players... and the perception of little to no accountability.

This we understand and I think we can all agree on this, right, CL?

Now, let us suppose that the god proposed by the catholic church does exist. All those things I said above still happen... shit still happens, accountability is still perceived as close to nil. Our perceived reality is still there.
The problem of evil (for that is what we're talking about), described long ago by the likes of Epicurus, is a very real one. The church has hidden it under the rug with the mysterious divine reasoning for it. The supposition that this god has an ultimately overall best plan for everyone seems to include some very nasty details for a sizable portion of the population. Due to these nasty details, something is definitely wrong with the picture of the all-good, all-powerful god...
Well, that picture works, as long as you don't think too much about those nasty details... best keep them far away from the minds of the good people. CL, you don't want to think too much about all these evil actions, do you? Your life is peaceful, mostly care-free and so are the lives of most of your closer acquaintances and family members. The community is friendly, helpful, good to each other... mostly... and the belief in a god is a great thing to bring all the disparate personalities together and to keep that communal peacefulness.
This belief is then seen as a positive community building mentality.
Thinking about the evils of the world can shatter this mentality, so the mechanism to sweep them under the rug has been brought forth. It's nothing new. But do notice how many unverifiable suppositions you have to make for this sweeping to work:
- A creator God exists.
- God can create whatever he wants to, how he wants to.
- God is good and wants the best for his creation.
- God imbued his creation with free will, the freedom to choose their actions from the infinite pool of possible actions available. Completely unrestricted, except by some physical details (that we've managed to cut short with some extra gear - flight, space travel, X-ray vision, microscopic vision, long distance communication).
- God's ultimately good plan must do with some evil among its creation. It wouldn't work otherwise.

Occam'z razor immediately informs you on which view (atheist, or theist) is likely to be the more correct one.... the one with the fewer assumptions.
However, an ingrained belief is difficult to shake off... your mind will try its utmost to retain that belief, to keep your view of the world in harmony with the belief.
It is normal, it is natural. We understand. But we are also saddened by knowing of this inability of yours.
We like people to be intellectually honest with themselves... and by holding on to this mountain of assumptions, you (and many like you) are clinging to the less honest option available... and you do that for the sake of... what? community? family?

[bennyboy]

And yet you believe that an all-good God allows the rape of young children so that pedophiles can express their free will.  Do you deny this?  Yes or no?  God HAS the power to prevent the suffering of these innocents, but chooses not do prevent it.  Do you deny this?  Yes or no?

Yes, I do believe God gives us free will and allows the world to go as it may, without divine intervention, without micromanaging it. NO, I don't know exactly why God allows things like rape or murder, etc, to happen. I don't know why He doesn't intervene. But as I have explained, it absolutely is NOT because I condone those things, or defend those things, or think they are anything other than objectively, inherently evil acts.

Please understand how hard this is to hear.  You believe in a God of absolute and perfect goodness. . . who allows child rape.

You are a member of a religious institutions which also allows child rape, and has in fact covered it up, not always even taking steps to step it when it's been discovered.

You claim objective morality, and yet you claim that Catholics are free to interpret the Bible as they will-- which would, naturally, give them different understandings of morality.

Isn't it hard for you to reconcile all these contradictions without having a nervous breakdown?  Does throwing your hands in the air and saying, "I don't know, I don't understand, I just choose to believe anyway" not ring alarm bells in that part of your brain still capable of logical thought?

Christians often challenge atheists to ask "What if I'm wrong?" I suggest that you do the same. Look in the real world for any sign of your God, of salvation, or of any goodness beyond the instincts of the human animal. You will find none, and you should therefore not believe in your God idea, which clearly is not represented in reality.

[LadyForCamus]

And yet you believe that an all-good God allows the rape of young children so that pedophiles can express their free will.  Do you deny this?  Yes or no?  God HAS the power to prevent the suffering of these innocents, but chooses not do prevent it.  Do you deny this?  Yes or no?

Yes, I do believe God gives us free will and allows the world to go as it may, without divine intervention, without micromanaging it. NO, I don't know exactly why God allows things like rape or murder, etc, to happen. I don't know why He doesn't intervene. But as I have explained, it absolutely is NOT because I condone those things, or defend those things, or think they are anything other than objectively, inherently evil acts.

You don't know because you can't think of any reason where it would make sense, because there are NONE!