Natural Order and Science

[Cyberman]

That response I have specially structured for Mathilda. Not for you or anyone else.

Doesn't matter. In open forum, Alex is just as entitled to post as he sees fit as anyone else. Read our rule on "Limiting Thread Participation".

[little_monkey]

Your post illustrates perfectly what I was implying: since you have no way to differentiate between what is true or false, then your proposal "our beings encompass a huge amount of data stored in our conscience, a gift of nature, blah,blah...' is just another statement that has no validity. The question you should be asking: how can one differentiate a crackpot theory from the real thing? If you have no test to differentiate these two, then your theory is no more and no less valid than any other crackpot theory. So you can advance the idea that "our beings encompass a huge amount of data stored in our conscience, a gift of nature, blah, blah..."but it is no different than any other crackpot theory.

Are you saying that you can differentiate all truths of nature because you have handful knowledge about the physical world?

Has your scientific knowledge brought you any jackpot theory about your own life?

Are you saying you have followed strictly laws of physics in making all your emotional decisions in your life?

If you are saying all that then I do not believe you.

No, I'm not saying that, but thanks for bringing it up. In areas where science has made great strides then I have something that is reliable. Science is not going to give all the answers, and those answers it provides are under temporary notice - should new evidence be discovered than those answers might be altered. It's a reality I must consider at all times. What may look as a weakness is really a strength as science has an inbuilt mechanism for self-correction. OTOH, if religion claims to have THE truth, then what if it's wrong, and possibly totally wrong, where does that leave those who have adhered to it all their lives? And then in areas where science is in its infancy or has nothing to say yet, I can still use rationality, logic and empirical method to seek out the best way to choose among the options that life offers me. It's much better than accepting any crackpot theory because there's a problem with that from the get-go - which crackpot theory do I choose since they're all equivalent?

[robvalue]

I had a dream that Harris posted another plagiarised post. Seriously.

Too much forum.

[Harris]

Are you saying that you can differentiate all truths of nature because you have handful knowledge about the physical world?

Has your scientific knowledge brought you any jackpot theory about your own life?

Are you saying you have followed strictly laws of physics in making all your emotional decisions in your life?

If you are saying all that then I do not believe you.

No, I'm not saying that, but thanks for bringing it up. In areas where science has made great strides then I have something that is reliable. Science is not going to give all the answers, and those answers it provides are under temporary notice - should new evidence be discovered than those answers might be altered. It's a reality I must consider at all times. What may look as a weakness is really a strength as science has an inbuilt mechanism for self-correction. OTOH, if religion claims to have THE truth, then what if it's wrong, and possibly totally wrong, where does that leave those who have adhered to it all their lives? And then in areas where science is in its infancy or has nothing to say yet, I can still use rationality, logic and empirical method to seek out the best way to choose among the options that life offers me. It's much better than accepting any crackpot theory because there's a problem with that from the get-go - which crackpot theory do I choose since they're all equivalent?

Do not forget about the concept of Eugenics that have took lives of tens of millions of innocent people. Everyone know that the idea of Eugenics came from the Great Theory of Evolution based on Natural Selection. It is unwise to overlook the corruptions that people have introduced in scientific concepts to achieve some political objectives. No matter how atrocious those corruptions were but no one is condemning science based on those atrocities.

However, you are making religious corruptions a base to condemn the idea of God, corruptions that people have invented in religions to achieve their selfish, mean, and greedy objectives.

“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah (God)," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 79-

Well that is a false approach because by rejecting God you are confirming the idea that our orderly, intelligible, and predictable universe have come into being from nowhere. This idea in fact is worse than any fairy tale that man’s mind has ever produced because chance, accident, and nothingness are not the paths on which scientific explorations are made.

The correct way of thinking is to acknowledge the reality. The reality is that every single event in the universe is happening on regular pattern and controlled by some natural coding system. This coding system regulates all actions in the universe to such a precision that minuscule change in universal constants can restructure the universe to such an extent that it will be beyond recognition. These coding and regulatory systems are the outcome of conscious and thoughtful activities and by no means can be taken as the work of chance, accident, etc.

“Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.”
Ar Ra'd (13)
-Verse 2-

God is real. Denying God is a self-deception. Instead of condemning the idea of God it would be wise to condemn the corruptions in religions which are the cause of anti-god ideas.

Almost all religions of the world have one thing in common. They give guidance and teaching on morality and abandon unnatural acts that people do for having more fun and pleasure. Different cultures and traditions have reshaped same religions differently and in due course corruption also get intermingled and became part of those religions. However, one thing that remained unchanged is the idea of one supreme God who is the Creator of everything and a Divine Ruler.

“For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).”
An Nahl (16)
-Verse 36-

Today science is advocating the ideas of multiverse, many dimensions, parallel worlds, worm holes, time travel, moving faster than speed of light, and so on but religions have already discussed similar idea long ago only in a different format.

In my previous post I had given many facts from Quran that science has recently discovered. In Quran and in the tradition of Prophet Muhammad there are many things which are very close to the ideas of time travel, paths in the universe, parallel worlds in different dimensions and so on. For example:

“By the Sky with (its) numerous Paths,”
Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 7-

I count it an imprudent behaviour if one takes scientific speculations seriously but reject similar ideas in the scriptures.

The concluding point is that if a person (theist or atheist) adamantly rejects everything that contradicts his specific ideology then that behaviour would never let adamant person to develop capabilities which may help exploring other dimensions of life that exist outside of his conceptual shell created by him artificially.

Normally, the main reason of stubborn attitudes are the uncontrollable desires and for a person there is nothing more dangerous than to become a follower of his/her own desires.

[robvalue]

Corruption in scientific concepts?

Some mental guys deciding to eliminate a bunch of people they see as weak has nothing to do with science.

Science is merely a tool for achieving goals. It never tells you what those goals should be.

Do you only question those scientific concepts which make your religious beliefs seem daft? You seem quite happy to take the rest of science for granted.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Well that is a false approach because by rejecting God you are confirming the idea that our orderly, intelligible, and predictable universe have come into being from nowhere.

No we're not. Science has a good understanding of how order arises out of chaos. We can explain the formation of galaxies, solar systems, planets, chemistry, biology, evolution, intelligence, societies and technology to a greater or lesser degree. There is no room for god. The gap for your god is so small as to make it irrelevant if all it did was to create the Big Bang.

The reality is that every single event in the universe is happening on regular pattern and controlled by some natural coding system. This coding system regulates all actions in the universe to such a precision that minuscule change in universal constants can restructure the universe to such an extent that it will be beyond recognition. These coding and regulatory systems are the outcome of conscious and thoughtful activities and by no means can be taken as the work of chance, accident, etc.

If that was so you would be able to produce observable and reproducible evidence for this. You can't because you're talking bollocks. If what you were saying were true science would have figured out these rules before you were even born.

But because you'll just ignore what I have said, show us a natural coding system that "regulates all actions in the universe to such a precision that minuscule change in universal constants can restructure the universe to such an extent that it will be beyond recognition"

I shall continue asking you this question until you answer it.

[FebruaryOfReason]

If God created supposedly "irreducibly" complex structures, why did he only do it at certain highly arbitrary points?

[Alex K]

@Harris

Eugenics is basically applying the principles of livestock breeding to humans. These ideas predate Darwin by millenia and have little or nothing to do with the theory of evolution. One has to seriously misunderstand and misinterpret what scientific theories like the ToE are to think that it leads to Eugenics.

[Angrboda]

“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah (God)," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 79-

Well that is a false approach because by rejecting God you are confirming the idea that our orderly, intelligible, and predictable universe have come into being from nowhere. This idea in fact is worse than any fairy tale that man’s mind has ever produced because chance, accident, and nothingness are not the paths on which scientific explorations are made.

That's just false. Rejecting God does not commit you to any particular theory of origins.

The correct way of thinking is to acknowledge the reality. The reality is that every single event in the universe is happening on regular pattern and controlled by some natural coding system. This coding system regulates all actions in the universe to such a precision that minuscule change in universal constants can restructure the universe to such an extent that it will be beyond recognition. These coding and regulatory systems are the outcome of conscious and thoughtful activities and by no means can be taken as the work of chance, accident, etc.

And you're back to merely asserting things that you need to prove. Where's your support for this. This is the third time I've pointed out that this is a bare assertion and you've yet to provide any support for it.

God is real. Denying God is a self-deception. Instead of condemning the idea of God it would be wise to condemn the corruptions in religions which are the cause of anti-god ideas.

It's twoo! It's twoo!

Sorry, not buying your bald assertion. Religion leads to corruption. That's an obvious fact. We can blame both religion and the corruption.

Almost all religions of the world have one thing in common. They give guidance and teaching on morality and abandon unnatural acts that people do for having more fun and pleasure. Different cultures and traditions have reshaped same religions differently and in due course corruption also get intermingled and became part of those religions. However, one thing that remained unchanged is the idea of one supreme God who is the Creator of everything and a Divine Ruler.

So what? Errors occur. Systematic errors persist systematically. Whatever 'guidance and teaching' religions are doing on morality, it doesn't appear to be working. Theists are over-represented in prisons.

“For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).”
An Nahl (16)
-Verse 36-

Are you suggesting hell is deep inside the earth? That's nuts.

Today science is advocating the ideas of multiverse, many dimensions, parallel worlds, worm holes, time travel, moving faster than speed of light, and so on but religions have already discussed similar idea long ago only in a different format.

In my previous post I had given many facts from Quran that science has recently discovered. In Quran and in the tradition of Prophet Muhammad there are many things which are very close to the ideas of time travel, paths in the universe, parallel worlds in different dimensions and so on.

Very close if you loosely interpret things. Religion has predicted many things, true and false. You have to count the misses as well as the hits, and religion has a lousy track record in that sense.

I count it an imprudent behaviour if one takes scientific speculations seriously but reject similar ideas in the scriptures.

See above regarding hits and misses.

The concluding point is that if a person (theist or atheist) adamantly rejects everything that contradicts his specific ideology then that behaviour would never let adamant person to develop capabilities which may help exploring other dimensions of life that exist outside of his conceptual shell created by him artificially.

Bollocks. There's a difference between having an open mind and not rejecting even the most outlandish ideas, such as those from religion. Next you'll be telling me that I'm closed minded for adamantly rejecting the existence of unicorns.

Normally, the main reason of stubborn attitudes are the uncontrollable desires and for a person there is nothing more dangerous than to become a follower of his/her own desires.

Normally, maybe, but in this case it's because the poster is speaking bollocks.

[Cyberman]

Corruption in scientific concepts?

Some mental guys deciding to eliminate a bunch of people they see as weak has nothing to do with science.

Science is merely a tool for achieving goals. It never tells you what those goals should be.

Precisely. The same science that gave us Bowie knives and shivs also gave us scalpels.

Do you only question those scientific concepts which make your religious beliefs seem daft? You seem quite happy to take the rest of science for granted.

^^ This. I love it when someone sits at a machine only made possible because of science to tell us how wrong science is, don't you?