Does Islam Need A Reformation (supossedly a debate but not really)

[ReptilianPeon]

Panel:

• Safaruk Chowdhury – Theologian
• Abdullah Al Andalusi – Muslim Debate Initiative
• Zara Faris – Muslim Debate Initiative
• Theo Hobson – Journalist & Theologian
• Tom Holland – Historian
• Dr Taj Hargey – Muslim Educational Centre Of Oxford

Here is the summary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC7pSJ8mHA0

If you have time to waste then you can waste two hours of being lied to by Wahaabis/Salafis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kotc3xB2BR8

[Mystic]

Thanks for that. Something to keep in mind is that Imam Ali said disbelievers would fight Muslims if Muslims leave Islam as it truly is.

It's a natural consequence. The Quran convinces many by it's miracle nature yet the Shariah and Sunnah and interpretation of Quran is corrupt.

Do you know how vital a Guide and Leader is per Quran? When God veils people from the Guide, it's like the 40 years of the desert when Moses and Aeron left their people to themselves.

It's due to a sorry rebellious state of the community.

Yes we need reform, and the primary reform we need, is the recognition our fallible leaders can't represent Quran or Sunnah or God, and we need to pray sincerely for God and be willing to submit to the leader and guide of our time and anticipate his return.

Without the leader and Guide, as I said, there is no way justice will be established in the world. The hadiths are clear it is Imam Mahdi that will establish justice and he is been nicknamed the "the Mahdi" to mean he is the guided one from the nation. None of us can claim full guidance and represent Islam but him.

People follow their leaders like blind sheep.  Clear contradictions to Quran from ahadith or fatwas go unnoticed, and when noticed, people still turn away and are not submissive.

[ReptilianPeon]

In theory, this is a good debate to have. But the trouble is it was organized by people who suck al-Saud's penis and they want to deny there are problems and want to brush them 'under the carpet'. However, I appreciated Tom Holland and Taj Hargay being there. If one searches on YouTube, there are other such discussions on "Does Islam Need A Reformation?" which are likely better.

[Anomalocaris]

When you say Islam "needs" a reformation, it begs the question "Islam need a reformation in order to serve what and whose purpose"?

If the purpose is to allow Islam to last longer by reducing the friction it generates with forces of progress that has proven much stronger than Islam itself, and against which Islam has hitherto struggled savagely but ineffectually, then yes, a reformation is needed to serve that purpose.

But I am not sure that would be my purpose.   I am not an optimist about whether any religion is likely to ever reform itself in a way that makes itself temporarily a driver rather not hinderer of normal progress.

I am not sure letting Islam last longer is either a worthy goal in itself, or would it on the whole reduce the toll Islam would inflict before it is eventually largely sidelined.   So from my perspective, no, no reformation is needed.   Better it inflict a high toll now and go down in the next 100 years, then to inflict a similarly high toll over a much longer period and remain a baleful influence over a quarter of humanity for another 300-400 years.

[Mystic]

When you say Islam "needs" a reformation, it begs the question "Islam need a reformation in order to serve whose purpose"?

This is a good question.

[WinterHold]

The Sunni/Shia sects "MUST BE DESTROYED"; personally I don't believe in a reformation, but a RESTORATION.

I commented in a previous post, that when men think they are God, bad things happen. The Sunni/Shia Islam is just the excuse that turns men into Gods; you can smell it in the Sunni faith -seeing how Sunna Idolize their scholars-, you can see it clearly in the Shia faith when you see how "Ali and his sons" are described.

The restoration simply means to break those idols; one by one.  

It's very ironic to realize that shia and sunna (who both claim superiority), are actually the product of a bloody civil war:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Camel

If Muslims never quit this mentality; if they didn't put that history behind, we will never progress.
Islam is being corrupted a little by little, with missionaries on both sides -Sunni and Shia- claiming to have the golden key, but their golden key is nothing more than a different volume of Hadiths.

All claim to believe in the Quran, but refuse to use it to form their beliefs solely; they don't even trust their God. All have a political agenda, and all are not so different than a nationalistic racist tribal order, that is worthy of the 12 century.

[Minimalist]

They are all merrily slaughtering each other and all the while convinced that 'allah loves them best.'

How much more of a "reformation" do you want?

[vorlon13]

The only way they'd get a reformation is for all the ones in favor of the reformation to slaughter, disembowel, immolate, decapitate, eviscerate and crush utterly all the Muslims that don't think they need a reformation.

And since the reverse is actually happening at a pretty good rate, I'm not sure what the purpose of bringing up the topic is other than acquiring targets for jihad.

[ReptilianPeon]

The Sunni/Shia sects "MUST BE DESTROYED"; personally I don't believe in a reformation, but a RESTORATION.

But it's only Sunni and Shia that cannot get along. There are other sects. I can't remember the last time I heard about Sufis, Ahmadis or Ibadis in the news. These are all people peaceful. It's only Sunni and Shia who fight each other. Ibadis are older than Sunni and Shia; they came from the Khawarij, which you may have heard of, and which I need to do much research on.

[Anomalocaris]

If Muslims never quit this mentality; if they didn't put that history behind, we will never progress.
Islam is being corrupted a little by little, with missionaries on both sides -Sunni and Shia- claiming to have the golden key, but their golden key is nothing more than a different volume of Hadiths.

All claim to believe in the Quran, but refuse to use it to form their beliefs solely; they don't even trust their God. All have a political agenda, and all are not so different than a nationalistic racist tribal order, that is worthy of the 12 century.

Actually, the ultimate root of corruption is the belief anything but garbage, however little, can come out of treating a text of barbaric rambling by medieval maglomaniacal unscrupulous desert goat fucks, otherwise called called Koran, as anything but garbage.