Who's God did this?!?

[Cinjin]

How does that remotely address my statement?? What are you even talking about?? What fantasy of mine???? You did not even come close to responding to my actual question nor did you even bother to include it in your rebutal. Straw man bashing -- REALLY????

I'll try it this way.
Do you believe that your god is willfully allowing those poeple a lifetime of suffering for some unknowable plan of his making?

Yes or No? Simple question. No fantasy. No talking in circles (which you're good at). No sidestepping. No answering for the masses. Just you and your belief. Yes or No?

Hi Cinjin

What I was trying to point out about your statement, which I agree doesn't look clear now... is that you jump from God loving everyone equally to God apparently NOT loving all equally ~ by choosing to punish some.

I personally don't believe that God does this. This is what I'm saying about your insistence.. that you repeated twice above ignoring my statements to the contrary. If you want to continue to pursue this understanding of god, then I'm afraid you won't be addressing me, or what I understand to be the correct interpretation of Christianity. I'm not about to defend a belief that I don't hold and don't think is correct.

So to try to answer your new question, or re phrased question... [Do you believe that your god is willfully allowing those poeple a lifetime of suffering for some unknowable plan of his making?]
Gods plan that you're addressing I equate with the natural order (we all know the scope of that)... it's just how things are. This is the setup, the creation, the way the cosmos is ordered. The way that things suffer as part of life. Nothing mysterious there.

I understand God to be creator. Divine spark. Originator. Positive force. What goes against God... negativity, death, destruction...... isn't God. It's anti God.

So.... no. For those reasons.

There we go. An answer. Thank you.
So since your answer is 'No', God is not allowing them to suffer (which, being a Deist I actually agree with), than you don't believe that the christian god is everywhere watching over everyone and everything correct?

Because obiviously if he was everywhere, watching over everything than he would clearly be allowing these people to suffer.

[fr0d0]

Hi Cinjin

God never sits deciding who gets bad stuff and who gets good stuff. Such stuff is the result of this cosmic order we inhabit. God initiated the positivity. Not God is the negativity. As an active God, God sits on his throne running everything.

God doesn't stop the suffering (he allows it, he ordered it (this natural order)), but God isn't choosing to cause suffering.

[Cinjin]

Hi Cinjin

God never sits deciding who gets bad stuff and who gets good stuff. Such stuff is the result of this cosmic order we inhabit. God initiated the positivity. Not God is the negativity. As an active God, God sits on his throne running everything.

God doesn't stop the suffering (he allows it, he ordered it (this natural order)), but God isn't choosing to cause suffering.

How very Deistic of you. With some exception of course.
At any rate, an atheist might debate that if he runs everything, and he allows all things, such as face tumors and tsunamis, that he by proxy causes suffering for some unknowable plan. But I'll offer a truce since that is not my argument to bear.

[Faith No More]

Hi Cinjin

God never sits deciding who gets bad stuff and who gets good stuff. Such stuff is the result of this cosmic order we inhabit. God initiated the positivity. Not God is the negativity. As an active God, God sits on his throne running everything.

God doesn't stop the suffering (he allows it, he ordered it (this natural order)), but God isn't choosing to cause suffering.

Why couldn't god foresee this suffering and come up with a different plan? The way you make it sound is that there are physical laws that even god must abide by. If he is god, he could just change the laws. If god is capable of stopping the suffering but doesn't then he is responsible. I know that some people believe that suffering is god's way of testing and bringing about enlightenment, but then why the varying degrees of suffering? Why would god test some more than others?

[Godscreated]

---

Frodo is correct in what he has stated, you all want to see God in a bad light and so you do. God does love us all equally but that doesn't mean everyone gets the same life or the same breaks in life. It doesn't work that way. Let's look at it this way, a family with several children in it, some are physically fit a few have slight physical defects and a couple have bad physical defects. The parents have the means to get help for two with the bad defects and they do ( good parents ). What about the ones with slight defects, the parents get them help because the children complain they were not treated equally (good parents ). Now the ones who have no defects feel left out and want something done for their looks and the parents do so (good parents). Now all the children that had physical defects feel that they deserve to have more surgery to bring them to the standard of the ones who had no defects and on and on this goes and the parents do not know how to stop this maddening cycle and give up (bad parents). So whats the answer, all the children wanted to be treated equally and the loving parents wanted to give them what they wanted yet the result was unsatisfied childern. Where does this kind of attitude end, with all the children mad at mom and dad. This is the human condition, we will never be satisfied unless we love the One in control unconditionally.

---

Two things....
No. 1 - those hypothetical parents do not have supernatural powers that run out with one or two people. According to you, your god is everywhere and omnipotent - Therefore comparing a set of parents with money problems to your omnipotent god is just a poor comparison.
No. 2 - You still won't answer the question. Not a huge surprise, most christians wont because they cannot.
Here it is yet again: (a simple yes or no... give it a try)

Since you believe your god knows all and controls all things - Do you believe that your god is willfully allowing those people a lifetime of suffering for some unknowable plan of his making?

First thing to get out of the way I said the parents have all the means to give their children what they wanted. Second thing the (good parent, bad parent) part was sarcasim. Third thing I did answer your question, just not in the way you believe I should have and since it is my answer I get to do it my way. Let me make this simple for you, God wants to be loved by us not used for our own petty little things we feel are important. Yes I know these people are suffering and if I were in their shoes I would want relief too. However if it did not come I would trust God for my future and the reason I would trust Him is because He is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent and loving beyond your ability to understand.

Now to give you an answer in the form you want it NO! Is that plain enough for you. They are suffering because of sin and not their own but because sin exist period. You would call it evolution and because you do not believe in God then you must blame evolution for their fate. So where is their hope at, in people, people seem to give them a wide birth (lots of love there), so where is their hope, does it lie with all those people that make jokes about them and tease them and say cruel things about them, where is their hope, does it lie with you. What are you doing to help these people you so lovingly refer to as poor bastards.

---

---

Frodo is correct in what he has stated, you all want to see God in a bad light and so you do. God does love us all equally but that doesn't mean everyone gets the same life or the same breaks in life. It doesn't work that way. Let's look at it this way, a family with several children in it, some are physically fit a few have slight physical defects and a couple have bad physical defects. The parents have the means to get help for two with the bad defects and they do ( good parents ). What about the ones with slight defects, the parents get them help because the children complain they were not treated equally (good parents ). Now the ones who have no defects feel left out and want something done for their looks and the parents do so (good parents). Now all the children that had physical defects feel that they deserve to have more surgery to bring them to the standard of the ones who had no defects and on and on this goes and the parents do not know how to stop this maddening cycle and give up (bad parents). So whats the answer, all the children wanted to be treated equally and the loving parents wanted to give them what they wanted yet the result was unsatisfied childern. Where does this kind of attitude end, with all the children mad at mom and dad. This is the human condition, we will never be satisfied unless we love the One in control unconditionally.

---

This paragraph doesn even come close to the topic, much less a theodicy. The topic is "Who's god did this". In order for this paragraph to even come CLOSE to the topic, the parents would have KNOWINGLY had to have created the children with these physical defects. So you believe your god only has enough cash to deal with certain ones who are bad off, and the others he has no cash or power to help fix. And then, eventually, your god does not know how to stop the maddening cycle and then he just gives up?

Hey, that was your comparison. Apparently your solution to the problem of evil is to claim that your god is NOT all powerful, and is therefore helpless in the face of such overwhelming malevolence. He might be able to help some people some time, but according to you, your god is not all powerful and is overwhelmed by the maddening cycle of disease and hate, so therefore gave up.

Doesnt sound like a benevolent god to me. Sounds like you worship a faulty human, who breaks under pressure and is unable to handle his own creation.---and you wonder why we are not interested in converting to your beliefs.

In your paragraph, you also make a very common, and very WRONG mistake when discussion of god come up. You are trying to compare an all knowing, all powerful god to mortal people. Can those parents easily snap their fingers and cure every physical defect of their children? No. Would they if they could? Well, if they could but chose not to, that would make them sons-of-bitches in my eyes. Something tells me you would agree with that.

...NOW....

Insert a god into the mix. This god can snap his fingers and get everything he wants. God could easily snap his finger to cure all four of those children, but he doesnt. A benevolent person, and most especially a benevolent god, would not think twice about curing all 4 of those children, no questions asked. God does not cure those children. ANY of them. Which leads to the obvious conclusion that your god is NOT benevolent at least.. and maybe, just maybe, doesnt give a fuck.

..and you worship that careless prick.

I worship a God who is loving and I understand how His love works within this world which gives me the ability and desire to worship Him. You on the other hand and that goes for Nepo and Thor have no idea of Gods love or who He is so it only make sence that you believe the way you do and that is sad.

[Cinjin]

---

Frodo is correct in what he has stated, you all want to see God in a bad light and so you do. God does love us all equally but that doesn't mean everyone gets the same life or the same breaks in life. It doesn't work that way. Let's look at it this way, a family with several children in it, some are physically fit a few have slight physical defects and a couple have bad physical defects. The parents have the means to get help for two with the bad defects and they do ( good parents ). What about the ones with slight defects, the parents get them help because the children complain they were not treated equally (good parents ). Now the ones who have no defects feel left out and want something done for their looks and the parents do so (good parents). Now all the children that had physical defects feel that they deserve to have more surgery to bring them to the standard of the ones who had no defects and on and on this goes and the parents do not know how to stop this maddening cycle and give up (bad parents). So whats the answer, all the children wanted to be treated equally and the loving parents wanted to give them what they wanted yet the result was unsatisfied childern. Where does this kind of attitude end, with all the children mad at mom and dad. This is the human condition, we will never be satisfied unless we love the One in control unconditionally.

---

Two things....
No. 1 - those hypothetical parents do not have supernatural powers that run out with one or two people. According to you, your god is everywhere and omnipotent - Therefore comparing a set of parents with money problems to your omnipotent god is just a poor comparison.
No. 2 - You still won't answer the question. Not a huge surprise, most christians wont because they cannot.
Here it is yet again: (a simple yes or no... give it a try)

Since you believe your god knows all and controls all things - Do you believe that your god is willfully allowing those people a lifetime of suffering for some unknowable plan of his making?

First thing to get out of the way I said the parents have all the means to give their children what they wanted. Second thing the (good parent, bad parent) part was sarcasim. Third thing I did answer your question, just not in the way you believe I should have and since it is my answer I get to do it my way. Let me make this simple for you, God wants to be loved by us not used for our own petty little things we feel are important. Yes I know these people are suffering and if I were in their shoes I would want relief too. However if it did not come I would trust God for my future and the reason I would trust Him is because He is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent and loving beyond your ability to understand.

Now to give you an answer in the form you want it NO! Is that plain enough for you. They are suffering because of sin and not their own but because sin exist period. You would call it evolution and because you do not believe in God then you must blame evolution for their fate. So where is their hope at, in people, people seem to give them a wide birth (lots of love there), so where is their hope, does it lie with all those people that make jokes about them and tease them and say cruel things about them, where is their hope, does it lie with you. What are you doing to help these people you so lovingly refer to as poor bastards.

What am I doing? I am doing the exact same thing your god is doing ... absolutely nothing.



your god loves you, he watches over you and he's everywhere - therefore he spends everyday of your life standing right next to you correct? But for these poor bastards, he stands next to them every day watching them writhe in agony. They can pray to him all day long and he does nothing. That's some cold-hearted shit right there. Allowing them to suffer because of some unknowable plan he's got going.
Don't forget the added bonus that they're in that predicament because mankind sinned. Basically, your god made us capable of sinning ... he knew we would sin and now hes torturing people at random for that sin.

Are you people out of your FUCKING minds?!? Am I the only one who thinks this is fucking INSANE!

the god you love so much is watching you SUFFER for something he KNEW you would do before he created you. What a dick! You can keep your god and your insanity!

Nutjobs!

[Napoléon]

I worship a God who is loving and I understand how His love works within this world which gives me the ability and desire to worship Him. You on the other hand and that goes for Nepo and Thor have no idea of Gods love or who He is so it only make sence that you believe the way you do and that is sad.

hahahahaha man this is quality shit

[fr0d0]

Cheers Cinjin & respect. Our beliefs seem similar; it'd be good to flash that out some time

Why couldn't god foresee this suffering and come up with a different plan? The way you make it sound is that there are physical laws that even god must abide by. If he is god, he could just change the laws. If god is capable of stopping the suffering but doesn't then he is responsible. I know that some people believe that suffering is god's way of testing and bringing about enlightenment, but then why the varying degrees of suffering? Why would god test some more than others?

God doesn't have to follow those laws. God arranged it that way and sits directing it like the pilot flying Moya in Farscape. God could have physically constructed another cosmos with no suffering. All we know is that this isn't it.

Suffering does lead to empathy; perspective. The natural laws are indiscriminate. It's what makes our world go around.

[Napoléon]

Why couldn't god foresee this suffering and come up with a different plan? The way you make it sound is that there are physical laws that even god must abide by. If he is god, he could just change the laws. If god is capable of stopping the suffering but doesn't then he is responsible. I know that some people believe that suffering is god's way of testing and bringing about enlightenment, but then why the varying degrees of suffering? Why would god test some more than others?

God doesn't have to follow those laws. God arranged it that way and sits directing it like the pilot flying Moya in Farscape. God could have physically constructed another cosmos with no suffering. All we know is that this isn't it.

Suffering does lead to empathy; perspective. The natural laws are indiscriminate. It's what makes our world go around.

so you're saying frodo that you believe god knowingly made the universe the way it is, WITH the suffering of so many people? and that makes it ok? because thats just the way it is?

man what a shit outlook. don't you think it's your right to question this? surely by god giving you freedom of thought you are entitled to be outraged by such suffering?

[fr0d0]

You seem confused Nap. You've already admitted that yours is a shit outlook. My outlook is positive because it is rooted in the belief in a positive force. A force for good.

Of course we have the right to question it and grieve where necessary. You can't seem to reconcile the cruelty of nature where I can. How does that make mine a shit outlook?