20 dead in Orlando gay club shooting

[Esquilax]

Now I realize this is AF and the tendency is to lump all religions in together. I've already seen lots of comments equating Christians and Christianity with Islam and Muslims. Say what you want about Christians, call us bigots, etc.. The fact is Christians, to the extent they care, will preach or verbally condemn. A few refuse to bake cakes or photograph gay weddings. I think there is a world of difference between not baking a cake and shooting 50 gays. Those of you who have made that false equivalency, I hope you are satisfied. You've made your point at the expense of distracting everyone from the real enemies.

Now, I know you're ignoring me, because you're a petulant intellectual coward too invested in your philosophical nothings to countenance consistent challenges to them, but I also won't allow you to sit there and pretend that your religion plays no part in the culture of violence and dehumanization the LGBTQ community is forced to live in. I'm not going to stand by, in essence, and allow you to make this about bigoted bakers, and shovel the rest of the veritable shit mountain your religion is based on under the rug:

Christian pastor says gay people are worthy of death.

Christian pastor suggest homoseuals either remain celibate or "be put to death."

Pastor Anderson, who spent a lot of yesterday gloating over this, called the Orlando massacre "good news," because 50 gay people were dead.

Christian pastor equates homosexuality with serial killings.

I could keep going, but I'd be here a while, and I think I've made my point. Misrepresentations are part of your stock in trade, Wooters, but this isn't about bakers and florists refusing services, it's also about the horrendous rhetoric spouted by figures in your religion with their own followings, which you and yours seem content to ignore and remain silent over. It's about the tenets of your religion, amplified and promulgated by whole segments of your religion, that serve to Other the gay community and turn them into monsters in the eyes of fanatics within your ranks that will either take it seriously and act upon it, or not do that, but when your best argument is "yeah, but people don't take those guys seriously," then your problem isn't one where you can just say this rhetoric doesn't exist, or that people in your in-group don't sell it. The Orlando shooter wasn't some random immigrant, he'd spent some time in the US, to my knowledge. This is the culture he baked in, Muslim or no, where your side of the aisle has spent incalculable man-hours doing their darnedest to make it socially acceptable to demean and harm gay people, and in America they speak far louder than ISIS does. People are complex comminglings of ideas and motivations, and to attempt to make this all about ISIS, as some others have attempted to do here too, is simplistic and inaccurate at best, and dangerously naive and dishonest at worst.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Can you explain why America is at #50 for suicide, then, behind countries which have drastically restricted (to the point of outlawing) the private ownership of guns, such as Japan or South Korea? By your logic, we ought to be topping that list.

Not really. I never said that it was a simple correlation. Suicide rates are influenced by all sorts of factors - social, economic, cultural - which does not mean, that ready availability of easy to use killing tools has no part.  How large a part - that's debatable, sure, but some might argue, that whatever the potential decrease in suicides may be - it's at least worth considering.

The portion of Huggy's post you quoted and disputed reads, "Guns aren't a determining factor in whether or not someone commits suicide." I read that to mean "the presence of a gun doesn't enter into the decision to commit suicide" -- and I don't think it does. It makes success more likely, as you rightly point out, but that's a different kettle of fish.

I think you're underestimating the power of impulse. Many people, who survived a suicide attempt never tried it again. And considering that guns are the most reliable suicide method (along cyanide, but who keeps cyanide around the house?) - having them as an option certainly influences the number of survivors.

Having been suicidal twice in my life, I don't think I'm underestimating the power of impulse at all. It wasn't the presence or absence (absence, in my two cases) that made the difference. A person who is intent on suicide will do it with the means at hand.

Using a gun makes the attempt more likely to succeed, but you haven't shown it makes it more likely to occur.

[Lek]

As far as I can see in the bible, we christians are not allowed to harass, beat-up, or kill our neighbors.  If we do, it's not christianity telling us to.  If you think it does tell or allow us to do that, then show me.  Don't tell me what God did or what he told the Isreaeites to do, but what we as christians are to do.

[Cecelia]

Now I realize this is AF and the tendency is to lump all religions in together. I've already seen lots of comments equating Christians and Christianity with Islam and Muslims. Say what you want about Christians, call us bigots, etc.. The fact is Christians, to the extent they care, will preach or verbally condemn. A few refuse to bake cakes or photograph gay weddings. I think there is a world of difference between not baking a cake and shooting 50 gays. Those of you who have made that false equivalency, I hope you are satisfied. You've made your point at the expense of distracting everyone from the real enemies.

This is an appeal to worse problems.  Yes, there's worse problems.  But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't focus on them as well.

But you're right.  Most Christians (not all, of course.  Some are terrible pieces of garbage who think gays should receive the death penalty, and praised the attack) aren't as bad as Islamic Extremists.  Congratulations.  You must be proud of having such a high bar.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Here in Ireland, where gun control is probably more lax than in most other countries, you have to prove that you're a responsible member of the community in good standing but also that when not in appropriate use, your guns are safely locked away with the ammunition locked in a separate place. This is something I don't see with US gun laws.

I'm not sure you understand, then, the legalities of gun ownership here. There are restrictions on gun ownership based on criminal record, for instance.

No right granted us by the Constitution is untrammelled; this one is no exception. I can't simply walk into a store, buy a .357, and walk out. It doesn't work that way.

[Huggy Bear]

You do realize that "murder" falls under the umbrella of "homicide" right?

Of course I do. The sad thing is that you don't realize you're equivocating the two when the FBI doesn't. The FBI data that you cited specifically refers to murder, the federal legal definition of which I have linked above.

We can add this, and statistics, to the list of things you don't understand.

Try your semantics elsewhere.

In no way did I equivocate the two, I clearly said that I would compare homicide committed with firearms to homicide committed with automobiles, YOU'RE the one going on about "intent". Do you think the person that died (hypothetically) cares anything about intent vs negligence?

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Orlando shooter wasn't some random immigrant, he'd spent some time in the US, to my knowledge.

He was born here.

[Thumpalumpacus]

In no way did I equivocate the two, I clearly said that I would compare homicide committed with firearms to homicide committed with automobiles, YOU'RE the one going on about "intent". Do you think the person that died (hypothetically) cares anything about intent vs negligence?

Your equivocation lies in quoting murder statistics from the FBI and comparing them to automobile deaths. That equivocation should -- repeat, should -- be obvious to you, given that you are the one blathering about the difference.

Your usual semantical game.

[LastPoet]

Having been suicidal twice in my life, I don't think I'm underestimating the power of impulse at all. It wasn't the presence or absence (absence, in my two cases) that made the difference. A person who is intent on suicide will do it with the means at hand.

Using a gun makes the attempt more likely to succeed, but you haven't shown it makes it more likely to occur.

And the moment that when you try to reach the trigger with a long gun pointed to the chin, you find out you can't reach the trigger. Then you start devising strategies, like using the toes, or a set of pulleys. Then you laugh madly at the whole situation. Dark alleys of cobbled stone.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Having been suicidal twice in my life, I don't think I'm underestimating the power of impulse at all. It wasn't the presence or absence (absence, in my two cases) that made the difference. A person who is intent on suicide will do it with the means at hand.

Using a gun makes the attempt more likely to succeed, but you haven't shown it makes it more likely to occur.

And the moment that when you try to reach the trigger with a long gun pointed to the chin, you find out you can't  reach the trigger. Then you start devising strategies, like using the toes, or a set of pulleys. Then you laugh madly at the whole situation. Dark alleys of cobbled stone.

I spent some time figuring the proper proportions of bleach (which I had for laundry) and ammonia (which I had in the form of window cleaner) to make hydrochloric acid. Hearing my son breathing in his sleep saved my life.