UK to leave EU

[account_inactive]

Evidently this will be unpopular on this forum, but I am immensely proud and happy the the UK has voted to leave the EU.

To dismiss everyone who voted to leave as not understanding the issue is just flat out douchebaggery and bitterness. There has been just as much if not more outright stupidity in the remain camp than I have seen for leave. I have been more engaged in this than anyone I know. My family has been more engaged in this than I've ever seen them in any vote before. We watched ALL of the debates. We did in fact listen to both sides.

The significant difference between the two was that the remainers had nothing but negativity to share. By their own admission the EU was broken. By their own admission it was not great to have to negotiate with. The offer they presented to us is that remaining was the lesser of two evils.

Leave camp instead promoted at least SOME hope. Something positive. They promoted democracy. They promoted giving the British people control of their destiny, and as idealistic as you might think it to be, it was a hell of a lot more realistic to me than remaining in a corrupt, rotting, sinking political union that we had no say in joining.

But when it came down to it I did not vote on immigration, the economy, or because I particularly like Nigel Farage or hate David Cameron. I voted because I believe in democracy. In my (dare I say it, reasonably informed) opinion the EU is wholly undemocratic. It is not something I ever signed up for and given the choice I have gladly voted to leave.

As for the whole debate around 'should people have gotten to vote at all'. Yes. They absolutely should. I agree this referendum was not called because of some idealistic vision of democratic justice. It was called because David Cameron made a gamble. But the reality is people went out and voted on an issue that they'd never been consulted on before. The EU is not what it was when people voted in the 70's.

I did not buy the doomsayer stories and I still don't. The "experts". These very people had pushed the pound to its strongest ever just moments before the first votes came in. It was predicted in the economic world at this point just before the first results, that the remain camp had won. Nigel Farage himself admitted defeat before a single vote had came in! If you want to know my reason for not trusting at all what these supposed experts were saying, who had got it wrong countless times before, you need only look at how they got this result so horrendously wrong just moments before Sunderland announced its vote count.

Yeah. I'm chuffed. Call me a xenophobe, insinuate I'm a racist, call me a moron for not paying attention to the experts, tell me I don't know what's good for the country.

Quite frankly, I think this referendum has shown us that the British people are fed up with being patronisingly told what to do. And whatever happens, we'll be alright. This country has survived a lot worse than voting for its independence from a European super state, it'll still be here in 10 years time and I honestly believe we'll be better off.

*just edited some wording, namely saying we'd already left when I meant voted to!

[The Grand Nudger]

It has no direction to go but up, frankly..but that won't make that money reappear.  It's gone. As is the standing the UK previously enjoyed on the world stage. Seems to me you might not have realized that the pound was pushed to those levels - with the EU behind you, what's the recovery plan now..past the bailout that's already been offered? It's been made abundantly clear that the things mentioned before the vote will not be materializing in reality.

Don't get me wrong,. I applaud your optimism, and I understand your sentiments........I just don't know if this was the time or the opportunity to flex either.

[Losty]

Evidently this will be unpopular on this forum, but I am immensely proud and happy the the UK has voted to leave the EU.

---

To dismiss everyone who voted to leave as not understanding the issue is just flat out douchebaggery and bitterness. There has been just as much if not more outright stupidity in the remain camp than I have seen for leave. I have been more engaged in this than anyone I know. My family has been more engaged in this than I've ever seen them in any vote before. We watched ALL of the debates. We did in fact listen to both sides.

The significant difference between the two was that the remainers had nothing but negativity to share. By their own admission the EU was broken. By their own admission it was not great to have to negotiate with. The offer they presented to us is that remaining was the lesser of two evils.

Leave camp instead promoted at least SOME hope. Something positive. They promoted democracy. They promoted giving the British people control of their destiny, and as idealistic as you might think it to be, it was a hell of a lot more realistic to me than remaining in a corrupt, rotting, sinking political union that we had no say in joining.

But when it came down to it I did not vote on immigration, the economy, or because I particularly like Nigel Farage or hate David Cameron. I voted because I believe in democracy. In my (dare I say it, reasonably informed) opinion the EU is wholly undemocratic. It is not something I ever signed up for and given the choice I have gladly voted to leave.

As for the whole debate around 'should people have gotten to vote at all'. Yes. They absolutely should. I agree this referendum was not called because of some idealistic vision of democratic justice. It was called because David Cameron made a gamble. But the reality is people went out and voted on an issue that they'd never been consulted on before. The EU is not what it was when people voted in the 70's.

I did not buy the doomsayer stories and I still don't. The "experts". These very people had pushed the pound to its strongest ever just moments before the first votes came in. It was predicted in the economic world at this point just before the first results, that the remain camp had won. Nigel Farage himself admitted defeat before a single vote had came in! If you want to know my reason for not trusting at all what these supposed experts were saying, who had got it wrong countless times before, you need only look at how they got this result so horrendously wrong just moments before Sunderland announced its vote count.

Yeah. I'm chuffed. Call me a xenophobe, insinuate I'm a racist, call me a moron for not paying attention to the experts, tell me I don't know what's good for the country.

Quite frankly, I think this referendum has shown us that the British people are fed up with being patronisingly told what to do. And whatever happens, we'll be alright. This country has survived a lot worse than voting for its independence from a European super state, it'll still be here in 10 years time and I honestly believe we'll be better off.

*just edited some wording, namely saying we'd already left when I meant voted to!

---

I don't agree that it was a good choice, but I still think it's great that you actually looked into this and did research before voting. If you told me that it was because you hate immigrants or because you love vaping then I would think your reason is really stupid.

According to WoG I hate everyone who disagrees with me and always resort to name calling, so I hate you and you're a twat waffling wanker.

[madog]

PS. and it wasn't because of vaping it was to do with a blatant infringement of Art.10 ECHR and where that might lead ...

You've yet to explain properly how the legislation actually violates freedom of expression. As I told you before, and showed you via the UK government website, the legislation only bans adverts and commercial communications. It does not ban discussions, blog posts, reviews, etc. of any products. In fact, it's even better than that, because the legislation even allows e-cigarettes to appear on all of the following: cinema, fax, outdoor posters, posters on sides of buses (not travelling outside of the UK), leaflets, and direct hard copy mail.

Look, I get it, you think the ban is a silly one, because e-cigarettes can be used to smoke non-nicotine based products. That's fine, you have your opinion. However, smoking adverts have been banned for years in the UK, and the long term effect was a reduction in the number of smokers, especially amongst younger people. The point of banning an e-cigarette from an advert is because most vapers use them with nicotine, so the association between e-cigarettes and nicotine exists and is overwhelming. For a government which wants to reduce the number of people addicted to nicotine, banning adverts containing e-cigarettes makes perfect sense.

There isn't really an alternative, because an e-cigarette that uses nicotine looks exactly like an e-cigarette that doesn't. The only viable alternative would be no ban at all, but that's not going to happen because the government and the NHS actually want results.

I'll say it again, not that anyone will take any notice ..... its not about vaping ...

I have shown that the Directive violates "freedom of expression" just that you are not willing to look at the facts ..... Art.10 {1} does not allow any restriction on expression, this includes advertising and promotion ..... Art.10 {2} has exemptions permitted to Art.10 {1}. But those exemptions must be "Established" not just an authorities opinion ....

The argument that an e cigarette looks like one that uses nicotine is a bad example .... water looks like vodka, etc, etc .... but that to one side, e cigarettes for nicotine are not illegal .... So why does advertising an e cigarette sit well with your example .... The look has nothing to do with what an advertisement proposes .... if it does not promote nicotine, what has the look got to do with it?

Public Health UK a government body, ASH, Many Lords, I could go on are against the legislation ....

Note every ground put forward for the Directive have been debunked as regards the grounds the EU put forward for their directive ... That doesn't sound "Established" grounds .....

[LastPoet]

I was gonna say, you can often tell whether a particular side is "correct" on an issue by looking at the supporters. This morning all the far-right parties in Europe were singing Britain's praises. Now a communist party is too.

This wasn't a win for Britain, it was a win for extremist politics.

Fortunately, the PCP is an archaic artifact that still has support from the dying old farts still alive to have been active politically during the dictatorship, a few euroskeptics and a few other youngsters that think its cool to be different. They are and will eventually wane out in time. Their "cassete" playing is allways the same.

[The Grand Nudger]

Wait...wait...the PCP...........

[Tiberius]

To dismiss everyone who voted to leave as not understanding the issue is just flat out douchebaggery and bitterness. There has been just as much if not more outright stupidity in the remain camp than I have seen for leave.

Assuming this was mostly directed at me, I would like to point out I don't think I ever said "everyone" who voted didn't understand the issues. My point was most people didn't, and I stand by that view. The EU is a complex beast; it can't be explained to the average person, not because the average person isn't intelligent, but because the average person doesn't have a clue when it comes to complex economic issues. If they did, well, then the average person would be very rich and powerful.

I even admitted that I didn't fully understand the issues, which is why if I had voted, I would have voted "Remain" because the economic experts (i.e. the people we are supposed to trust to know these things, and the people who the government relies on for financial advice) predicted economic collapse, the start of which we may very well be seeing today.

But when it came down to it I did not vote on immigration, the economy, or because I particularly like Nigel Farage or hate David Cameron. I voted because I believe in democracy. In my (dare I say it, reasonably informed) opinion the EU is wholly undemocratic. It is not something I ever signed up for and given the choice I have gladly voted to leave.

If you think the EU was "wholly" undemocratic then I'm sorry but you clearly aren't "reasonably informed". Nigel Farage, the leader of UKIP, is an elected member of the European Parliament. These people represent your views in the EU. In fact, the EU parliament is *more* democratic than the UK parliament, because they don't use a first past the post system to elect representatives, but rather a proportional representation.

Also, just because the EU was not something you ever signed up for doesn't mean it is undemocratic. You never signed up for the Magna Carta either, or the way we currently run elections. Americans today never signed up for the Constitution. The fact remains that all those systems, and the EU, were democratic.

I did not buy the doomsayer stories and I still don't. The "experts". These very people had pushed the pound to its strongest ever just moments before the first votes came in. It was predicted in the economic world at this point just before the first results, that the remain camp had won. Nigel Farage himself admitted defeat before a single vote had came in! If you want to know my reason for not trusting at all what these supposed experts were saying, who had got it wrong countless times before, you need only look at how they got this result so horrendously wrong just moments before Sunderland announced its vote count.

You are conflating two issues. Economic experts are experts on the economy, they are not pollsters. Pointing out that economic experts got a prediction about people voting wrong and claiming that as a reason we shouldn't trust them is like saying you shouldn't trust a mechanic to repair your car because he didn't choose the correct numbers in the lottery.

Yeah. I'm chuffed. Call me a xenophobe, insinuate I'm a racist, call me a moron for not paying attention to the experts, tell me I don't know what's good for the country.

I know you, you're not a xenophobe or racist, or a moron. I do think however that you were misled by extremists who even now are backtracking on things they said to try and win the vote.

[LastPoet]

Wait...wait...the PCP...........

Its their Acronym lol.

[madog]

Who says it's without established grounds? Is that your opinion or is that a fact?  

Fact ... opinion doesn't need evidence ... Fact needs empirical evidence ..... there was none two tears ago and there is still none to this day ....

[LastPoet]

Well, Napo is a little dumb, but I wouldn't call him racist or xenophobe either

*runs off*