I Love You Enough to Burn You

[Hunted By A Freak]

Excellently put! I love the running narrative. It's so funny, that's almost exactly what Rob Bell put on the back of his new book. You're right though, the typical Christian idea of hell just kind of hits you the wrong way logically. I think, "I'm supposed to be the messed up one, but even I wouldn't set someone on fire for disagreeing with me."

The more accurate concept of Hell can be found in both the Old & New Testaments, but just look at what the NT actually states about Hell. First it's a place of Darkness void of God's presences and Light, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment"

Second Hell is a place of regret and sorrow void of God's presence and Joy, "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out."

Lastly Hell was created for Satan and his angels. They would most likely not even be affected by what we would know as fire. The flames of Hell are also a place void of God's presence and the Water of Life. Jesus claims to be the Living Water, that if you drink of it you'd never thirst again.

I'm not suggesting Hell isn't a place of torment, it is, but it's mainly tormenting because it's complete separation from God. What ultimate price did Christ pay on the cross for our sin? Total separation from the God the Father, "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Hell: It's not being lit up like a human torch, it's being all alone within yourself.

Oh, absolutely, I'm all in favor of a more biblical view of hell. I was saying that the typical idea of hell put forth in the popular sphere is more in line with what Cinjin said, and I can definitely see why that would hit people the wrong way. I can understand being off-put by it, since it's not really what the Bible says anyway. I like what C.S. said about heaven and hell in his books, and Rob Bell did a pretty good job painting a more accurate picture of heaven and hell in his new book.

Can you give me a brief synopsis of Rob Bell's perspective on Hell, I have a difficult time seeing myself agreeing with Rob Bell on most doctrinal issues.

[Cinjin]

... I hate his hateful god ...

You hate something you don't believe exists? Ain't that a conundrum.

I'm a deist dude ... I believe in God ... that allows me priveleges the atheists don't have. Bite me.

You said that I hate something that I don't believe exists. That's actually both true and false.
About a month ago my friends and I were discussing the movie Hostel. When my sister in law interjected with, "... is he that guy who tricks the boys and ends up killing that one kid?" ... "I hate that guy". In one sense she knows that there is no "guy" and that she can't possibly hate an actor, but what she's really trying to proclaim is that she hates all the evil qualities that that fictional character has come to possess.

So, no, your god does not exist to me ... and yet he does - in that he embodies all the horrible characteristics that your religion has assigned him. He's fake, in the sence that I know he does not physically exist, but he is real in the fact that the sorrow and suffering caused in his name is very tangible. In fact, one could argue that ANYTHING that causes mankind to murder one another is worthy of hatred. Physically real or metaphorically real - it's still suffering caused indirectly by that entity.

Plus, doesn't matter if he's real to me - he's real to you - and I've seen what your people are capable of in his name.

[coffeeveritas]

Can you give me a brief synopsis of Rob Bell's perspective on Hell, I have a difficult time seeing myself agreeing with Rob Bell on most doctrinal issues.

Yes, that seems to be a pretty common sentiment. Anyway, Rob Bell mixes C.S. Lewis concept of heaven and hell in the book "The Great Divorce" with Dallas Willard's realized eschatology/ kingdom theology and N.T. Wright's concept of "life after life after death." If you read "The Great Divorce" "The Divine Conspiracy" and "Surprised by Hope" you'll pretty much get the whole of his new book. They are all great books, it's a great combo.

The controversial part: he does add one additional caveat, Rob Bell seems to say that Hell is not forever. He translates the phrase traditionally rendered "eternal punishment" as "age of correction." I read the phrase in context in the UBS Greek New Testament and his rendering does actually check out. So in his view the purpose of Hell (keeping in mind the word "hell" isn't actually in the Bible anywhere) is also loving. The purpose of hell is to make people face all their own anger/unkindness/ignorance and learn to be the kind of people that can be happy and fulfilled in the world-made-right (this present earth, fixed). I'm trying to be fair to Rob Bell here, I haven't had time to fully analyze his argument so I'm not sure where I stand on it. On the surface it is a rather appealing and exegetically sound narrative of eschatology.

[coffeeveritas]

This exactly proves the point above. Without a concept of purpose your life is sad and inhibited.

Atheists have a concept of purpose. We can make our own. We can be more than we are, religion is not required. Life is only sad if you need a belief in god in order to see any purpose.
Atheists are not sad, they are not without purpose, they are free.

This is something I'm very interested in Ace. I've never had this explained to me, but what exactly is the sense of purpose for an Atheist, and where does meaning ultimately come from? Of course I recognize the diversity of takes here, but I wonder what the gist is here. Maybe I should start a thread on this, I'm very interested in what philosophy different atheists have. I suspect there's a lot of common ground.

[Napoléon]

This exactly proves the point above. Without a concept of purpose your life is sad and inhibited.

Atheists have a concept of purpose. We can make our own. We can be more than we are, religion is not required. Life is only sad if you need a belief in god in order to see any purpose.
Atheists are not sad, they are not without purpose, they are free.

This is something I'm very interested in Ace. I've never had this explained to me, but what exactly is the sense of purpose for an Atheist, and where does meaning ultimately come from? Of course I recognize the diversity of takes here, but I wonder what the gist is here. Maybe I should start a thread on this, I'm very interested in what philosophy different atheists have. I suspect there's a lot of common ground.

I think the basic trend is that we don't need a god to give us purpose. We can find purpose in simply what makes us happy.

[coffeeveritas]

This exactly proves the point above. Without a concept of purpose your life is sad and inhibited.

Atheists have a concept of purpose. We can make our own. We can be more than we are, religion is not required. Life is only sad if you need a belief in god in order to see any purpose.
Atheists are not sad, they are not without purpose, they are free.

This is something I'm very interested in Ace. I've never had this explained to me, but what exactly is the sense of purpose for an Atheist, and where does meaning ultimately come from? Of course I recognize the diversity of takes here, but I wonder what the gist is here. Maybe I should start a thread on this, I'm very interested in what philosophy different atheists have. I suspect there's a lot of common ground.

I think the basic trend is that we don't need a god to give us purpose. We can find purpose in simply what makes us happy.

So what you're saying is that you don't need no Man to feel good about yo'self!
"simply what makes us happy" has a very Zen quality to it.
This is interesting, I totally have to do a thread.

[Ace Otana]

This is something I'm very interested in Ace. I've never had this explained to me, but what exactly is the sense of purpose for an Atheist, and where does meaning ultimately come from? Of course I recognize the diversity of takes here, but I wonder what the gist is here. Maybe I should start a thread on this, I'm very interested in what philosophy different atheists have. I suspect there's a lot of common ground.

We have our own sense of purpose. We can create that purpose for ourselves. My purpose is to grow, learn, protect loved ones and become more than I am whilst enjoying every minute of my life. I chose this purpose for myself.
No one really needs a religion or god to find a sense of purpose. Some can't imagine purpose without a god, but fail to realise that we are sapient. We can think for ourselves and become more than we are.
I've never had a moment where I felt meaningless. Because I had already a meaning, a meaning I created for myself.

You see, our evolutionary purpose is to survive and reproduce, that is well taken care of, and being sapient, we can think and create our own unique purpose. Become more than we are.

[Hunted By A Freak]

Can you give me a brief synopsis of Rob Bell's perspective on Hell, I have a difficult time seeing myself agreeing with Rob Bell on most doctrinal issues.

Yes, that seems to be a pretty common sentiment. Anyway, Rob Bell mixes C.S. Lewis concept of heaven and hell in the book "The Great Divorce" with Dallas Willard's realized eschatology/ kingdom theology and N.T. Wright's concept of "life after life after death." If you read "The Great Divorce" "The Divine Conspiracy" and "Surprised by Hope" you'll pretty much get the whole of his new book. They are all great books, it's a great combo.

I've read the "Great Divorce", it' really the only book I've read by C.S. Lewis. As I recall it portrayed the separation as permanent.

The controversial part: he does add one additional caveat, Rob Bell seems to say that Hell is not forever. He translates the phrase traditionally rendered "eternal punishment" as "age of correction." I read the phrase in context in the UBS Greek New Testament and his rendering does actually check out. So in his view the purpose of Hell (keeping in mind the word "hell" isn't actually in the Bible anywhere) is also loving. The purpose of hell is to make people face all their own anger/unkindness/ignorance and learn to be the kind of people that can be happy and fulfilled in the world-made-right (this present earth, fixed). I'm trying to be fair to Rob Bell here, I haven't had time to fully analyze his argument so I'm not sure where I stand on it. On the surface it is a rather appealing and exegetically sound narrative of eschatology.

Rob Bell's perspective really seems to place him in the universal camp, possibly a quaker of some sort. A good place to answer this question would be the Old Testament, which also speaks of hell/hades, referred to of course as Sheol. And it basically says that its eternal:

Job, "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up."

Proverbs, "Sheol, and the barren womb, Earth that is never satisfied with water, And fire that never says, "Enough."

Ecclesiastes, "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."

Isaiah, "For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness."

For it to be true in the New Testament, it must first be true in the Old Testament. God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Thanks for the breaking that down. I didn't think I had much in common with him. Late

[Cinjin]

My mother is at it again. I see her twice a year and whenever I'm not around she's telling my son about jesus and how he saved us all.

Holy shit I'm pissed! She's gotten one friendly warning about this already!

I don't want my son growing up worrying about his accountability to some invisible "father-figure" who "loves him enough" to send him into fiery torment for the rest of eternity!


What the fuck is wrong with my parents?!!? How can you possibly equate the self-serving jealous irrational feelings of that self-absorbed maniacal sky dictator to the love of a real father??? And WHY would you want to teach that kind of garbage to a child?!?!

Holy fuck am I pissed!

[Minimalist]

Yeah, I must say that the idea of kissing the ass of some silly god is not my idea of "happiness."

I guess it is why I think that all theists have a few screws loose.