christian school project

[I_am_not_mafia]

Hi lighthouse.

God is defined in many dictionaries as "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being." so I guess we can define it.

But what exactly is "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being." Does it have a body? Is it purely energy? Does it in exist in a different reality outside of this universe? How did it come about?  How does it sense and interact with the world?

Anything else you can define in greater and greater detail. Like the ruler of a country is also a person, a human, you could describe their parentage and know their history. You know how they became ruler and how they enact rules. You can't do this with the concept of a god. It cannot be properly defined and there is no way which it can be. The very concept is unfalsifiable.

Science is simply the explanation of how God works. The big bang is how God spoke the universe into existence.

Everything since the big bang can be understood by science to a lesser or greater degree. How matter came from radiation, how this formed the first generation of stars which went super nova seeding space with heavier elements, how the second generation of stars formed with their planets and geology with chemical complexity, then biological, leading to evolution, human society and technological progress.

If a god sensed the world and interacted with it or listened to prayers, then it would have to do so using physical means. There is absolutely no hint that these mechanisms exist.

Which basically means that a god is largely irrelevant if all it did was create a big bang.

How can you disprove his existence if you never looked for him? Nothing is impossible in the science world so why is this?

In terms of evidence rather than 100% proof. The chance of there being a god is so negligible that we might as well say that it cannot exist. We know of no means or scenario where complex patterns of energy can exist without the use of matter. We know of no situation where the laws of Thermodynamics do not apply, which means a god must be subject to entropy and decay, therefore cannot be eternal and therefore cannot be a god.

Nobody dedicates their lives to the tooth fairy or santa.

There are thousands of gods which people used to dedicate their lives to and now they don't. None of these gods exist either.


So in response to your OP and as a scientist, these are the things I would be interested in before even contemplating the morality of a nebulous concept.

[Sal]

Q: If God is a God of love, why would he create humans knowing the mass majority would end up in hell?

Because he likes the taste of humans. The humans going to Hell are spoiled rotten and don't taste very nice. The humans going to Heaven are God's dinner.

... what? Just as informative as this entire thread.

[Mister Agenda]

This is for a school project to post a christian post on an atheist site and answer questions or reply to comments. Please be mature and give feedback.

Q: If God is a God of love, why would he create humans knowing the mass majority would end up in hell?

A: God is indeed a God of love. He loves all of his creations yet holds humanity among his favourite and loves them more than the others. First and foremost he created us with the gift of freewill. He gave us a perfect earth with no death or sickness. It was all just sex, good food, beautiful views, and tame animals. God had a very personal relationship with Adam and Eve. He didn’t force them into loving him back. He gave them an escape button. They took it. He is always chasing after our hearts and only wants us to chase after his heart.  His love is not forced and he gives us an option. Think of it as you have 5 children. Three of them will end up addicted to drugs and being thrown into prison for stealing and murder. The other two will solve world hunger, cure cancer, and lead the nations with strong morality. You have a choice to kill them all or raise them all. God chooses to raise them all up with the same amount of love and chances to love him back. Only two choose to love him back and let him pure his knowledge and supernatural love into and the other two rejected him yet he was still with them even if they couldn’t see.

Welcome, lighthouse. Even if you're just visiting, an intro thread is considered a nice courtesy.   

Do you think God was unable to create humans with free will who would freely choose to not select the 'escape button'? How were they supposed to know better when he withheld the knowledge of good and evil from them? Why allow the serpent in the garden to tempt them, didn't it stack the deck against them to allow an evil creature access to people who were completely innocent and naïve?

Why was God limited to 'kill them all' or 'raise them all'? What prevented him from only raising the good ones and only killing the bad ones? Didn't he know how they would turn out in advance? Why let the bad ones be born in the first place?

The three legs of theodicy are omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence. I see you've chosen to retain omnibenevolence at the cost of sawing off the other two legs of the tripod. I approve. A God that has limitations and is doing the best that he/she/it/they can is far nobler than one that can do or know anything without effort and allows suffering through lack of sufficient benevolence.

[Mister Agenda]

Hi Lighthouse. You should introduce yourself in the introduction section of the forum.

As for the question, I have no reason to believe that the god described in the bible is a god of love, if he even exists. He seems pretty terrible to me. Have you read the rest of the bible besides the parts you've mentioned here?

Hi. I have read the rest and I find a lot of it to be mis understood and misread by non believers.

First, thanks for engaging beyond the first post. A lot of people like to drop their offering and take off.

And congratulations on reading the rest. It's very surprising how many believers claim their soul depends on understanding the Bible and have never read it all the way through.

I read it all the way through, twice, as a serious believer. It didn't make me an atheist, but the experience convinced me that the Bible was not an account ultimately authored by a being with the qualities of omniscience, omnibenevolence, and omnipotence.

But I'm the humble sort, not inclined to think someone who doesn't reach the same conclusions I do about it has misunderstood or misread it prior to hearing their thoughts on the subject. My experience though is that those who strongly believe in the Bible take it's truth as their premise and make up little stories to explain any discrepancies; 'reasoning' that since it's true, there must be a reasonable explanation for discrepancies and difficulties, so any reasonable-sounding explanation, no matter lacking in evidence, is acceptable. I look forward to finding out that you're an exception and have evidence-based backing for your interpretation being correct when it seems that God is requiring evil of his people or a contradiction pops up.

[Mister Agenda]

In order for me to correct your misunderstanding or to even acknowledge it, I have to see your take on the passage. My take on it however, is that after the fall of man war was a way of life. It was how you kept your people alive and grew your empire. Game of Thrones in real life. None of the other nations offered peace nor mercy and the fact that Jews did that was very different. Now if peace was not accepted then killing anyone able to fight back and keeping the ones unable alive was the logical and moral way of doing war. And if peace was kept, maintaining the idea of supremacy over the people was a way to keep them from rebelling. Jews also treated their servants well unlike how the Egyptians treated them lol.

That sounds a lot like 'it was okay because everybody else was doing it'. Including the cities being conquered? You present a claim that other conquering tribes never offered quarter to cities they intended to sack, I strongly doubt that's true. Bandits have always generally preferred having loot handed to them over having to fight for it.

[Mister Agenda]

Hi and welcome to the forums.

So many problems in your post, not sure where to start...

First of all, to claim that your god is a god of love, requires one to ignore an awful lot of the actions attributed to said god in the Bible.

But let's look at the supposed option you claim that the god gives us:


It is no different than the 'option' given by Mafia bosses to those that need to pay him "protection" or have their business wrecked.

Mafia boss - "This is a real nice store you have. Be a shame to have it come to any harm. All you have to do is pay me $100 a week, and I'll see to it that it is protected".

God - "That's a real nice soul you have there. Be a shame to have it punished for eternity. All you have to do is believe I exist, ask me for forgiveness, and worship me, and I'll protect it from harm".

How are either of the above a true option?

The only difference is, it can be proven that the Mafia boss exists, and that the punishment for making the wrong choice is not eternal.

The worst possible universe I can imagine, is one where the Bible god actually exists.

You completely missed the point of love. An arranged marriage vs a marriage where both parties consent and are madly in love with each other. One is fake love the other is real. He wants you to choose him but wont force you. Hell is simply a place where God is not. since God is love and everything good in existence, Hell must be the opposite. You choose where to go he doesn't throw you into hell you walk there by your own accord.

If hell is a place where God is not, I take it you don't believe in an omnipresent God, since there is a place where he is not present.

If hell is more awful than annihilation, then it is a needless cruelty to send souls there rather than simply annihilating them. If it isn't more awful than annihilation, then it's not so bad. I figure annihilation is my fate anyway since I don't believe in an afterlife, I would pick it over being burnt or otherwise tortured for any great length of time, for instance. So please elaborate on how hell doesn't conflict with a God of love.

[Mister Agenda]

I'm really confused about what love means

The story behind this one is of Babylon. This passage was a vision a prophet had to warn the sinners of the city. It was a warning from God that this is what is to come if you keep on living the way that makes him displeased. It was also a way to pause and reflect on how currupt the nature of man has become. It was in no way an order to rape and murder. But that their enemies will overtake them and God would erupt a volcano nearby.

So who is it that is 'stirring up the Medes' in that passage? I agree that the passage is not a call for Hebrews to murder children, it's a prophecy that God is going to have someone else do it.

[Mister Agenda]

Seriously, assuming this is not a troll, why would a school do this?

Troll or home-schooler whose Mom is desperate to get away from the kid for a few minutes.

Take your pick.

Or attends a religious school It would be a far more interesting project to have them post something atheist on a Christian site....

[Whateverist]

Learn how to spell favorite.

Lighthouse has.

You should learn that there is also British English and other forms of English around the world. We spell words like organise, metre, Aluminium, colour, accoutrements, anaemia, oestrogen, defence, cancelled etc. This is because the words come from other European languages whereas Noah Webster decided to create a specifically American way of spelling for a new country.

http://www.tysto.com/uk-us-spelling-list.html
http://www.merriam-webster.com/about-us/spelling-reform
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_a...ifferences

Good for you that you recognize you have a problem.  I'm sure there is help for that.  

[Mister Agenda]

Nah he isn't  a tyrant.
He asked Abraham to give his son as a sacrifice and right before he did, God stopped him and told him to use a lamb in the bush instead. God just needed to know that if that was what it came to Abraham would give his only son who meant the world to him. This allowed God to make a covenant and Give his only son to be perfect and suffer through torture and three days in hell to pay for everyone's sins so they didn't have to make blood sacrifices anymore and the holy spirit could live inside of us.

original sin is the fact that we are a self centered species. You can see that in the fact that a baby's first words are "mine" and they only love you because you give them things and keep their belly full.  Which is natural but God gives deliverance from that.

blood sacrifice was dumb thats why we stopped doing it

giving people free will because you love them and forcing them to love you back isn't love
you walk yourself into hell he doesnt punish you by putting you there. hell is simply a place where he is not.

sin isn't really relevant to why you go to hell. you go to hell for not loving him because why would he want to spend eternity with someone that doesnt love him back. you just simply go to a place where he is not. Since he is love and everything good and hell is the opposite then i guess its not the most pleasant place.

Thank God I am his

Why didn't God already know what Abraham was willing to do? Why would God ever want someone to love him so much they would be willing to sacrifice their own child to him? Why would God need his own son to be a human sacrifice, why would God have ever needed people to make any kind of blood sacrifice to him? Well, the Bible says God likes the smell of burning animal carcasses, so that's what the Bible (Leviticus) has to say about it. Of course, most of the other gods in the region felt the same way. They loved the smell of burnt sacrifices.

If blood sacrifice was dumb, maybe God shouldn't have had the Hebrews doing it in the first place, don't you think?

Does God make it so you can't walk back out of hell? You know, once you truly understand the consequences of your choices, you turn around and go 'Wow, I was wrong about my life; let me get back on track' are the gates closed? Do you have some slick story about how you're trapped for eternity with no hope of release being a sign of God's love too?

Can you give Bible passages that back up your version of hell? I've read it a couple of times and don't recall the passage that says hell is just where God isn't.