Q's from a theist

[Shell B]

1. There is no predominant religious belief among my friends and family.
2. New England
3. No.
4. None of your business.
5. Nothing about the universe has theistic leanings.
6. That is irrelevant, but neither. I do not believe I know enough about the universe.
7. I wouldn't.
8. I believe evolution is fact and intelligent design is ludicrous.
9. Everything.
10. It doesn't. I don't believe in god because there is no proof of god. It has nothing to do with evolution. Religious people make that correlation, not me.
11. Relative.
12. No. My belief in the above has to do with evidence that supports it, such as difference in morality among theists who claim to have a monopoly and specific guidelines for such things, difference in morality among family members, etc.

[Royston]

Environment:
1. What is the predominate belief of your family and friends?
My friends are predominantly agnostic or atheist, but there are a few active Jews, Christians and Muslims, and a Sikh. My own family are nominally protestant, my in-laws are active Roman Catholics. In this part of the world, that is a recipe for trouble.
2. What is your general location? (If U.S. please use northwest, northeast, etc.)
Scotland, where Catholic and protestant shall never mix...
3. Have you changed your beliefs in the past?
I dabbled with Christianity when I was about 14. I came away from it disappointed. Very disappointed.
4. What is your highest level of education?
Post-graduate.

Cosmology/Physics:
5. Many people have argued that the “big bang” implies a finite universe. Some people (myself included) believe that a finite universe tends to have more theistic leanings. How would you respond to this?
A universe that has a finite timespan (as predicted by the second law of thermodynamics) needs to be finite in size. I would think that a God that wanted to show off how brilliant their creation was would build an infinite steady-state universe. At least I would, if I were God...
6. If you have not already answered above- do you believe in a finite or eternal universe?
Finite.
7. How would you respond to the fine tuning argument?
I don't anthropomorphise the universe and put humanity at the centre of it, so the fine-tuning argument doesn't really float my boat.

Biology:
8. Do you believe in IDT (Intelligent Design Theory), TOE (Theory of Evolution), or other? (Seems like a weird question but there are some atheists that believe that we were designed by aliens)
I believe that we are a product of evolution, and that the mechanism of evolution is natural selection.
9. Based on the question above, what would you say are the general points that back up your belief in this?
The vast body of peer-reviewed scientific evidence to support that theory.
10. How does a belief in [response above] relate to an atheist/agnostic belief?
I don't have an atheist/agnostic belief. My atheism is an absence of belief, not a belief.

Other:
11. Do you believe that morals are relative/preference? Please Explain
Neither one nor the other. IMHO, morals and ethics are an emergent property of whatever society or community you live in, or are brought up in.
12. Is your belief partly due to something that you may not be able to explain to others?
I don't have a belief: my atheism is a lack of belief. Your question, however, illustrates perfectly that yes, it can be difficult to explain my lack of religion or faith to others who do have faith. They want to know what I believe in instead of God, but I don't believe in anything instead of God.

[Rev. Rye]

Environment:
1. What is the predominate belief of your family and friends?
Family is Lutheran, Dad's side is Catholic. Don't know the beliefs of too many acquaintances

2. What is your general location? (If U.S. please use northwest, northeast, etc.)
Midwest (Chicagoland area)

3. Have you changed your beliefs in the past?
I slowly stopped believing in God, and Bertrand Russell destroyed the last vestiges of my faith by the age of 15.

4. What is your highest level of education?
Currently between colleges. Recently finished a third year of community college that I took just because.

Cosmology/Physics:
5. Many people have argued that the “big bang” implies a finite universe. Some people (myself included) believe that a finite universe tends to have more theistic leanings. How would you respond to this?
I will leave this question to people who actually know much about physics.

6. If you have not already answered above- do you believe in a finite or eternal universe?
Finite probably. I doubt I'll be able to live long enough to verify it.

7. How would you respond to the fine tuning argument?
If you mean that even God is supposed to be beholden to certain laws so much that he had to fine-tune the universe, it really seems to undermine his own omnipotence.

Biology:
8. Do you believe in IDT (Intelligent Design Theory), TOE (Theory of Evolution), or other? (Seems like a weird question but there are some atheists that believe that we were designed by aliens)
The theory of evolution is the most plausible explanation for the diversity of life on this planet.

9. Based on the question above, what would you say are the general points that back up your belief in this?
Holy Hell, go to talkorigins.org to see just a sampling of the most compelling points.

10. How does a belief in [response above] relate to an atheist/agnostic belief?
I admit that evolution could very well be how God maintains life on Earth (Granted, there's hardly any evidence that it is how it happens). I don't really see it as an alternative to God doing it at all.

Other:
10. Do you believe that morals are relative/preference? Please Explain
Well, ultimately, I believe that we build our moral systems based around our own personal preferences. Of course, some personal preferences tend to be more valid than others (especially when they deal with self-preservation.)

11. Is your belief partly due to something that you may not be able to explain to others?
That depends on whether you think "not enough evidence" is beyond your comprehension. I hope it's not.

[lilphil1989]

1. I have atheist, christian and hindu friends. I also have quite a few friends who are rather apathetic when it comes to religion.
My grandparents on my mother's side are recovered jehovah's witnesses, as is my mother. The rest of my family is either atheist or religiously apathetic.

2. Midlands, England, United Kingdom.

3. Yes, that's called learning.

4. Just about to graduate with a masters degree in physics.


5. I don't see how a finite universe implies the existence of a god that gets involved in human lives. That seems like a complete non-sequitir to me. Could you explain your reasoning?

6. Since there is no evidence about what happened very close to or before the big bang (or even whether before the big bang is a meaningful concept), I hold no beliefs on the matter. One of the reasons so many people are willing to believe utter nonsense is that they're so damned scared to say "I don't know". I don't have that problem. Not knowing isn't frightening.

7. There are many "fine-tuning" arguments. Some of them rely on misconcepts about physics (or in the case of some ID proponents, straight up lies), some are laughable. What particular fine-tuning arguments are you referring to?


8. I "believe" in evolution the same way you believe in gravity, in that it is simply an observable fact of nature. I believe that the scientific theory of evolution by natural selection gives a good explanation of how evolution occurs.

9. I'll name 3 quickly, since I'd prefer not to derail this into a biology thread:
Fossil records along with dating techniques (e.g. dendrochronology, radio-dating).
The geographic distribution of organisms.
The fact that the DNA of a human is very similar to that of a chimpanzee, slightly less similar to that of a horse, less similar still to that of a spider, less similar still to that of a cactus, etc; the genomes of different species form a perfect family tree.

10. I don't think it does, at least not for me. You don't need to know about evolutionary biology to be struck by the complete lack of evidence for the existence of a deity.

Ex- If our origins can be explained in a naturalistic way then I believe the origins of the universe can be explained in a naturalistic way too.

That really doesn't follow. But I'm sure you know that. Are you trying to trick someone into saying something stupid?


11. (you called this 10, btw. you have 2 questions labelled no.10)
Yes. The morals of modern western society (in an average sense) are vastly different to the morals of, for example, the semi-literate desert-thugs that threw together the old testament. There are no absolutes in morality.



You describe yourself as a theist. Which particular theistic entity(s) do you believe in and why? Why do you not believe in any of the others?
Could you post your own answers to the 11 questions you asked?

[BloodyHeretic]

Environment:
1. What is the predominate belief of your family and friends?
Family- Theist (Christian- Catholic, Born again)
Friends- Atheist/Agnostic mostly (immediate friends) Catholic, Protestant.
2. What is your general location? (If U.S. please use northwest, northeast, etc.)
West of Ireland.
3. Have you changed your beliefs in the past?
Brought up Christian, became an atheist at 18.
4. What is your highest level of education?
Science Undergrad at the minute.

Cosmology/Physics:
5. Many people have argued that the “big bang” implies a finite universe. Some people (myself included) believe that a finite universe tends to have more theistic leanings. How would you respond to this?
Not sure, trying to bend my mind around M-theory just at the moment.

7. How would you respond to the fine tuning argument?
I'd say we evolved to be fine tuned to our universe, or else we wouldn't be here to argue about it and not the other way around.

Biology:
8. Do you believe in IDT (Intelligent Design Theory), TOE (Theory of Evolution), or other? (Seems like a weird question but there are some atheists that believe that we were designed by aliens)
Theory of Evolution.
9. Based on the question above, what would you say are the general points that back up your belief in this?
The large body of evidence it explains in the simplest manner possible. Ockham's Razor.
10. How does a belief in [response above] relate to an atheist/agnostic belief?
It removes one of religions main attractions, explaining where we come from.


Other:
10. Do you believe that morals are relative/preference?
They are relative, maybe they ought to be objective. Perhaps someday we'll all agree, though probably not.
11. Is your belief partly due to something that you may not be able to explain to others?
No, anything I believe to be true is based on evidence and reason.

[duck101]

Okay thanks everyone for your responses. @ lilphil1989 I'm just going to answer a few of your Q's real quick.

"5. I don't see how a finite universe implies the existence of a god that gets involved in human lives. That seems like a complete non-sequitir to me. Could you explain your reasoning?"

Okay I'm probably not the best person to explain this but I'll do my best. If the universe (not taking into account the multi universe idea) is finite then it must have had a beginning... right? So if something has a beginning then something must bring it into existence. Well that's the idea anyways. Some people prefer to replace "God" with force, but I think that's just a way of avoiding using the word "God". So I will admit myself that I have not explored every idea related to this (that's kind of why I'm asking). I'm sure you probably know the story about Albert Einstein. He fudged his numbers because he didn't like the implications that come with an expanding universe. Then eventually he came to terms with it, but he always made sure to make clear that he didn't believe in a personal God (hope I got my story right... correct me if I'm wrong). So basically what I'm trying to get at is that in some lines of reasoning, a finite universe tends to imply that some force/deity was at work. I'm not too familiar with dawkins works, but his more naturalistic idea is quite interesting I must admit.

"7. There are many "fine-tuning" arguments. Some of them rely on misconcepts about physics (or in the case of some ID proponents, straight up lies), some are laughable. What particular fine-tuning arguments are you referring to?"

Thanks for asking. Well my numbers are all messed up so I'll do my best. So basically there are some 30+ constants that are just finely tuned for our existence. If any of these were just a little off we would not have life (at least as we know it). So I've had it explained to me kind of like thinking of dials. Let’s say each dial represents a constant, on each dial there are 60 "clicks". Each dial must be exactly on the right point. So with my thing I just made up the chances of each dial being turned exactly so would be 1/60 to the 30th power. So the chances would be very small of such an event occurring. Some atheists counter this argument by saying if there is an infinite number of universes eventually you would have one that would be finely tuned. So I was just trying to see ideas people believe in that are adequate for explaining this. Did I answer your Question?

"That really doesn't follow. But I'm sure you know that. Are you trying to trick someone into saying something stupid?"
Nope, not trying to trick anyone. I just listed some response examples so people kind of know where I'm going with the question. To be honest though, there are some people that have made that argument to me.

Thanks for noticing my numbering flaws
Btw I think that's a very good point about me answering my own questions. I'm not feeling very well right now, but I'll try to have it up before the nights end; it will probably take me a little while I will make sure to answer "Which particular theistic entity(s) do you believe in and why? Why do you not believe in any of the others?” Sorry I'm not trying to back out of anything, but I'm feeling very dizzy right now.

[Faith No More]

1. What is the predominate belief of your family and friends?
Christian family, atheist friends.

2. What is your general location? (If U.S. please use northwest, northeast, etc.)
Northern Midwest of the U.S.

3. Have you changed your beliefs in the past?
After suffering through some trauma I became a deist for a few years in my twenties.

4. What is your highest level of education?
Just short of a two year Associates Degree.

5. Many people have argued that the “big bang” implies a finite universe. Some people (myself included) believe that a finite universe tends to have more theistic leanings. How would you respond to this?
I say that if the universe was infinite you would also claim that it supports the theistic view.

6. If you have not already answered above- do you believe in a finite or eternal universe?
I do not speculate on this.

7. How would you respond to the fine tuning argument?
I'm not a physicist but if you mean the argument that the universe could only exist with certain parameters and the existence of these parameters implies design, then I say the universe evolved around the parameters that were given and could have done so under different ones.

8. Do you believe in IDT (Intelligent Design Theory), TOE (Theory of Evolution), or other? (Seems like a weird question but there are some atheists that believe that we were designed by aliens)
Evolution.

9. Based on the question above, what would you say are the general points that back up your belief in this?
The fossil record.

10. How does a belief in [response above] relate to an atheist/agnostic belief?
The two are mutually exclusive.

11. Do you believe that morals are relative/preference? Please Explain
Relative to culture and other factors.

12. Is your belief partly due to something that you may not be able to explain to others?
My reasons for lack of belief are all explainable.

[duck101]

So I have noticed that a lot of you have really made clear that you don’t have a belief regarding this, and that atheism is having a lack of a belief. I actually have a recent story that regards to this. This year in my science classes we worked a lot on dichotomous keys. On one of these dichotomous keys I was appalled to see that I had been marked off for not mentioning that an organism lacks a physical characteristic. I went up to my teacher and asked “why should I be marked off because I didn’t mention that an organism lacks a certain characteristic? Isn’t that a little vague; I could mention a lot of things that an organism lacks?”. Okay well I didn’t get very far in my argument, but I think it’s funny that I was actually arguing from more so your side of things. My teacher insisted that not having a physical characteristic is in fact a physical characteristic (seems more like opinion to me). I also struggled to get around the idea that being sessile (non-movement) is a form of movement. So what I am getting at is that I think it is more so opinion. Some may argue that not believing in something is still a belief. So for the sake of not arguing over something silly like this, please replace “belief” with “non-belief” if you so wish to do so.

As requested by a user I have answered my own questions that I have asked you guys

Environment:
1. What is the predominate belief of your family and friends?
One side of my family is mainly theist where as the other side is probably mainly agnostic. My friends are mainly theist with a few agnostics.
2. What is your general location? (If U.S. please use northwest, northeast, etc.)
U.S. (northwest)
3. Have you changed your beliefs in the past?
No I have always had a theist belief. The only difference is that at a younger age it was mainly due to ignorance without knowing what I really believed in. At around the age of 13 I started to get really interested in the origins debate. I started reading information and I became instantly hooked. Since then I make sure to commit at least 30 min. a day reading information about the different beliefs/ideas. More recently I have begun discussing with others their beliefs and my beliefs. I have a peer in my class that is in direct contrast to me. We challenge each other to read information regarding the others belief. We both haven’t budged at all, but I think it is important to look at something from all sides.
4. What is your highest level of education?
I can’t really answer this question as I still have one year left in high school. The closest thing I could say to answer the question is that I am an honor student (top 10% of class). I look forward to pursuing a career in energy engineering, but obviously haven’t gotten there yet

Cosmology/Physics:
5. Many people have argued that the “big bang” implies a finite universe. Some people (myself included) believe that a finite universe tends to have more theistic leanings. How would you respond to this?
As I have probably mentioned in some of my other posts, I believe that big bang implies a finite universe. I still have a lot of study in this area. Unfortunately right now I have to go more to authority for why I believe this. If something is finite then I think this implies a beginning.
6. If you have not already answered above- do you believe in a finite or eternal universe?
Finite
7. How would you respond to the fine tuning argument?
Interesting idea, but still need more experience in physics (among other things). To expand upon this idea I wonder how far exactly the constants can be off before everything as we know it is gone. For example if one constant was off by maybe a few percent would we still be here.

Biology:
8. Do you believe in IDT (Intelligent Design Theory), TOE (Theory of Evolution), or other? (Seems like a weird question but there are some atheists that believe that we were designed by aliens)
Here’s where things get really weird. At the very least I do not believe in a purely “naturalistic” explanation as far as the TOE goes. Then again if I was designing something why would I go through the trouble of evolution. I have read quite a bit on the IDT and I must say it’s very interesting to say the least. I know you guys will tear me apart for any credit given to the IDT, but I think it brings up some interesting points (for example “irreducible complexity”). I have read the criticisms that it receives, but I still think it has its use. I realize that there may not be a system that can completely fit the definition of being irreducible complex. I admit that it is hard to prove with absolute certainty that a mutation did not have an immediate use. With that being said, I think it is safe to say that some biological systems at some point in time needed to conserve certain mutations that had no immediate benefit. So lets say that a biological system needs to conserve 50 mutations before it has any benefit, as the number of mutations needed goes up the chances go down. I realize that no matter how bad the chances of something occurring it is really not evidence that should be used but I think in some instances mathematics may provide its use. Again I’m not saying that just because there are bad chances of something occurring that something cannot occur, but at some point I think it raises a few eyebrows. I think that evolution (by definition) is fact, but I do not believe that the TOE/neo Darwinism is fact.
9. Based on the question above, what would you say are the general points that back up your belief in this?
I still need to look into this further before I know exactly what I believe.
10. How does a belief in [response above] relate to an atheist/agnostic belief?
I consider my beliefs/non beliefs in IDT/TOE to be independent of my beliefs in generic theism. I see both sides of it. I do not think IDT or TOE is really good evidence for or against a deity.

Other:
11. Do you believe that morals are relative/preference? Please Explain
I believe that morals aren’t relative or preference. We may disagree on certain things, but that doesn’t change what is right and wrong.
12. Is your belief partly due to something that you may not be able to explain to others?
Yes. If certain events didn’t occur in my life I may have been more likely to hold a deist belief. To be fair I try not to let things like this affect my generic theistic beliefs, but they become more prominent as you dig deeper into my theistic beliefs. however, In no way are my general theistic beliefs based on information that is not accessible to the general public.

Another user (lilphil1989 )asked me “You describe yourself as a theist. Which particular theistic entity(s) do you believe in and why? Why do you not believe in any of the others?”
To be honest this is a very hard question for me. I would say my beliefs lean more towards the core beliefs shared by Christians. I consider “God” to be more of an idea so it’s hard to describe it as if its some tangible object that I can describe. Of course the Christian God image is usually the one that is burned into our minds, but I don't necessarily view God as that. How I describe the God I believe in is like thinking of a new color that has never been discovered; In other works it can't really be done. I will never know for sure that I’m right and other religions are wrong. I consider my belief in general theism to not be based on faith; my beliefs as you dig deeper (religion) are more based on what you would call “faith”.
@ lilphil1989 - btw I think that's really cool that you're pursuing a masters in physics. It's cool to talk with someone that is specializing in an area of study that is in some ways related to this big old question of origins.

[lilphil1989]

Not sure, trying to bend my mind around M-theory just at the moment.

Whilst doing so, bear in mind that there's no experimental evidence whatsoever to support it!

---

Duck, belief that something is false is not the same as not believing that something is true. In terms of what I said above to BH, I don't believe that M-theory is a valid description of the way the universe works, because there's no evidence to support such a belief. However, I dont believe it to be false, since if anyone ever manages to get a solid prediction out of it, it may well turn out to be true.

If something is finite then I think this implies a beginning.

The surface of a sphere is finite. Can the surface be said to start anywhere?

A great book I'd recommend that addresses all of your issues with evolutionary biology is Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable.


You didn't really address the main part of my question. Why do you believe what you do? What makes you think that it is true?

[colubridae]

All your questions, indeed, your entire OP is just a cunning way to present god-botherers as equivalent to atheists.

They aren't.

Athesists think! God-botherers don't. Simples. *tsk*