Who is to blame.

[vorlon13]

How many opponents did Trump clobber in the 'pub primary ?   17 ??

And did it occur to Hillary she needed to up her game to avoid being #18 ??

Sometimes there are these things called 'clues', and the savvy candidate should feel some motivation to pick up on them and (re)act accordingly.

Do we blame Trump for internal democrat polling that missed 10,000,000 democrats that voted for Obama who were going to sit out the 2016 election ?

[Tonus]

As a citizen of an outsider looking at his campaign from afar I can say that it looked racist from here in the UK. Maybe you have a different level of tolerance for bigotry over there

Sadly, we probably do. Scott Alexander put up a lengthy blog post on how the attempts to paint Trump as a racist were so overboard as to perhaps work in his favor. I'm not entirely sold on his premise, but he does show how the media narrative contrasted with what Trump was actually saying both in the past and as he campaigned.

Note that Alexander is not excusing Trump --on the contrary, he is convinced that Trump will be a disaster as President-- but pointing out that the media's desire to point out his racism led to a "boy who cried wolf" type of scenario where potential voters went tone-deaf to the message.

[Aroura]

How many opponents did Trump clobber in the 'pub primary ?   17 ??

And did it occur to Hillary she needed to up her game to avoid being #18 ??

Sometimes there are these things called 'clues', and the savvy candidate should feel some motivation to pick up on them and (re)act accordingly.

Do we blame Trump for internal democrat polling that missed 10,000,000 democrats that voted for Obama who were going to sit out the 2016 election ?

This is a myth. I mean yeah, in 2008, there were a lot more votes.  BUT in 2012, Obama gained approx the same total number of voters as Hillary just did.  As a matter of fact, current totals show she OUTPERFORMED his 2012 total votes.
She underperformed in a few key states only.

While she underperformed relative to Obama’s 2012 totals in several Midwestern states — Ohio, Michigan, Iowa, and Wisconsin — Clinton ran virtually even with Obama in the battlegrounds of Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Virginia, Nevada, and New Hampshire. What’s more, she far surpassed Obama’s 2012 vote total in Florida, the country’s biggest swing state. Yet somehow, while Obama carried Florida, Clinton lost it. 

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/442...obama-2012

Hillary Clinton (2016) 64,654,483 total votes
Barack Obama (2012) 62,615,406 total votes

Trump gained votes on Romney.
Mitt Romney (2012) 59,142,004 total votes
Donald Trump (2016) 62,418,820 total votes

(P.S. it appears Obama would have barely edged out Trump in 2012, because of a few battleground states, but it would have been VERY close.  Trump overperformed massively, Clinton did not actually under perform at all. )

P.P.S. So please stop spreading the myth of 10 million missing democratic voters.  Thanks.

---

Also, I just looked and Obama got Obama's total vote amount of 69.5 million votes in 2008, a difference of approx 5 million.  So even if you are counting from the UNPRECEDENTED election of 2008, it's 5 million, not 10.

[Aroura]

My mistake, Obama had 1.5 million more votes in 2012 than Clinton, not less. Still, that is not 10 million nor anywhere close.

[vorlon13]

Do we blame Trump for internal democrat polling that missed 10,000,000 democrats that voted for Obama who were going to sit out the 2016 election ?

This is a myth. I mean yeah, in 2008, there were a lot more votes.  BUT in 2012, Obama gained approx the same total number of voters as Hillary just did.  As a matter of fact, current totals show she OUTPERFORMED his 2012 total votes.
She underperformed in a few key states only.

While she underperformed relative to Obama’s 2012 totals in several Midwestern states — Ohio, Michigan, Iowa, and Wisconsin — Clinton ran virtually even with Obama in the battlegrounds of Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Virginia, Nevada, and New Hampshire. What’s more, she far surpassed Obama’s 2012 vote total in Florida, the country’s biggest swing state. Yet somehow, while Obama carried Florida, Clinton lost it. 

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/442...obama-2012

Hillary Clinton (2016) 64,654,483 total votes
Barack Obama (2012) 62,615,406 total votes

Trump gained votes on Romney.
Mitt Romney (2012) 59,142,004 total votes
Donald Trump (2016) 62,418,820 total votes

(P.S. it appears Obama would have barely edged out Trump in 2012, because of a few battleground states, but it would have been VERY close.  Trump overperformed massively, Clinton did not actually under perform at all. )

P.P.S. So please stop spreading the myth of 10 million missing democratic voters.  Thanks.

---

Also, I just looked and Obama got Obama's total vote amount of 69.5 million votes in 2008, a difference of approx 5 million.  So even if you are counting from the UNPRECEDENTED election of 2008, it's 5 million, not 10.

I got the 10,000,000 figure from this, I didn't make it up.

[Aroura]

Ok Vorlon, I'm not saying you made it up. I know you're an honest guy. I've seen that number mentioned elsewhere as well, here and on other sites. I'm just saying that the actual final vote tallies dont match that, so it's incorrect.

Clinton was undeniably a less than inspiring candidate, but democrats didn't flake nearly as hard as people are suggestion. Particularly with the 14 states with new voter suppression laws on the books since 2012. We may never know how many of the actual 1.5 million voters refused to vote of on their own, and how many couldn't vote for other reasons.

Democrats need to do better in 2 years, but we need facts to do it, not hyperbole.

Trump was, unaccountably, to my way of thinking, but undeniably so, inspiring to a great many more people than Romney was. The pendulum swings.

I dont know why I keep posting in politics. I need to step away, but I can't. Going to try again now.

[abaris]

You should rather worry about the total numbers. What is it? Give or take 110, 120 millions voting? Out of what these days? Give or take 350 millions? I don't know how many are elligible to vote, but that seems to be a rather pathetic turnout in any of these years.

What gives the rest the right to complain over the outcome if they can't even be arsed to exercise what little democratic rights they have?

[Pat Mustard]

How many opponents did Trump clobber in the 'pub primary ?   17 ??

And did it occur to Hillary she needed to up her game to avoid being #18 ??

Sometimes there are these things called 'clues', and the savvy candidate should feel some motivation to pick up on them and (re)act accordingly.

Do we blame Trump for internal democrat polling that missed 10,000,000 democrats that voted for Obama who were going to sit out the 2016 election ?

Well we can blame the repubs for denying (at least) 7m US citizens their right to vote on the spurious grounds that two different people with the same name were one person trying to vote two different states. Remember the only double voter was a Drumpfuck.

---

As a citizen of an outsider looking at his campaign from afar I can say that it looked racist from here in the UK. Maybe you have a different level of tolerance for bigotry over there

Sadly, we probably do.  Scott Alexander put up a lengthy blog post on how the attempts to paint Trump as a racist were so overboard as to perhaps work in his favor.  I'm not entirely sold on his premise, but he does show how the media narrative contrasted with what Trump was actually saying both in the past and as he campaigned.

Note that Alexander is not excusing Trump --on the contrary, he is convinced that Trump will be a disaster as President-- but pointing out that the media's desire to point out his racism led to a "boy who cried wolf" type of scenario where potential voters went tone-deaf to the message.

But his analysis fails because it fails to take into account that the media only started pointing out that he is a racist in the final furlong. The wishy washy attitude to Herr Obersturmbanngroppenfuhrer and his KKK kronies is what legitimised their campaign.

[scoobysnack]

Do we blame Trump for internal democrat polling that missed 10,000,000 democrats that voted for Obama who were going to sit out the 2016 election ?

Well we can blame the repubs for denying (at least) 7m US citizens their right to vote on the spurious grounds that two different people with the same name were one person trying to vote two different states. Remember the only double voter was a Drumpfuck.

---

Sadly, we probably do.  Scott Alexander put up a lengthy blog post on how the attempts to paint Trump as a racist were so overboard as to perhaps work in his favor.  I'm not entirely sold on his premise, but he does show how the media narrative contrasted with what Trump was actually saying both in the past and as he campaigned.

Note that Alexander is not excusing Trump --on the contrary, he is convinced that Trump will be a disaster as President-- but pointing out that the media's desire to point out his racism led to a "boy who cried wolf" type of scenario where potential voters went tone-deaf to the message.

But his analysis fails because it fails to take into account that the media only started pointing out that he is a racist in the final furlong. The wishy washy attitude to Herr Obersturmbanngroppenfuhrer and his KKK kronies is what legitimised their campaign.

The racist slur was thrown about way too often to the point it lost it's meaning and effectiveness. It became a joke to the point that everything became racist. Ever talk to an actual racist? Like a member of the KKK, or a neo nazi, or a black supremacist? That's truly racist, so when the term started being used more often for things that were really not racist people just started rolling their eyes at it's use.

I kept hearing people say he was racist, and when I looked into it, they were usually just confused about nationality vs actual race. Like when he talked about Mexicans. Mexican is a national identity which makes up many races including black people. If he was talking bad about latinos, or black people that would be racist.

I actually know many latinos and black people along with women who voted Trump. Blacks were called all sorts of names for getting off the democrat plantation. Uncle Tom, negropean, oreo, sell out, etc. Latinos were called race traitors etc. But they saw past the identity of being a victim and being placed in a group and told how to vote. 

Trump really isn't racist, he's just pro American. But when you confuse nationalism with racism, I can see how you would connect the dots in your head that it translates to racism.

[Faith No More]

You think only people like the KKK and neo-Nazis can be racist? That's exactly the kind of thing a racist-in-denial.

Oh, Trump got black and Latino voters? No one said they can't be stupid, too.

Lol, confusing nationalism for racism. The two almost always go hand in hand.