Serious Problems with Atheism

[The Grand Nudger]

Meh, the status of my belief is beyond my control.  Were I to wake up tomorrow believing in gods - or were someone to present some evidence that gods existed, however, I would still answer those questions 1-6 the same way I do now, as an atheist. Just as attempting to invalidate any of those given explanations will not establish that there is a god, establishing that there is a god will not invalidate any of those explanations.

[Whateverist]

I've been having trouble posting replies, I did cut and paste stuff from scientific open letter, maybe the spam filter is blocking it, dunno.

I wondered about that the other day when I saw you'd made 5 posts yet when I checked to see where you'd made them it only registered your original post on this thread.

I think you've already gotten some good responses so I'll check to see how you respond to those as I get caught up before commenting.

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Oh, the site is probably blocking you as spam or something. An admin here can probably help you out with that.

Yeah I think they are working on it, hopefully this one will work; Thank you all for replies, Just a thought about what Science is Really about these days;

Professor of Genetics, Richard Lewontin wrote; “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfil many of its extravagant 

promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It

 is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori 

adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, 

that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.”  Billions and Billions of Demons, The New York Review, 9 January, 1997, p. 31.

Is this an objective search for truth?

I don't think so.  It looks like you settled for the first account that supported your own suspicion without looking any further.  You can do better.

[Alex K]

I honestly never got why having God in the picture would suddenly provide meaning where there isn't any without God.

[Whateverist]

Oookay. Again, what does that have to do with atheism? You're just pulling a scientist's quote about one of his scientific views. This isn't a science site, although some of the scientists here can have that conversation with you if you want. Is that what you wanted instead of an atheist conversation?

How else can we continue to discuss atheism if we leave science out of it? Atheists constantly say there's no evidence for God, isn't that a scientific statement?

If you wish to talk about gods with people who don't already believe in them you probably do need to give them some reason to take the subject seriously.  I'm no scientist but I've never experienced anything of the supernatural variety and the category strikes me as problematic and most likely fanciful.  If you tell me god is a supernatural thing I can't take that seriously without some decent reason, evidential or otherwise.  Just bear in mind, what someone would require who is not already inclined to believe is probably more than you need.

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You ask many questions for a single thread.  It might work better if you pick one at a time and devote a separate thread to each.

Speaking of meaning, does your God assign your meaning to your life?  How does that work in Christianity?  How does there being a God make your life meaningful?

God gives meaning to our lives by His very existence; with God existing, we have a chance at Eternal Life and Love, those are the Only things that give meaning to our otherwise pointless lives that end either in a hole in the ground or cremation oven.

So you can't believe we atheists are capable of experiencing love yet we're supposed to believe a supernatural being exists who makes up meaning out of nothing and hands it out to us just for believing in him?  Not very Christian of you.

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As others have said . . . the above is just an opinion, and I disagree with Lewontin. If there is a god, and that god has any influence in the world, then that influence can be investigated. The problem is that a god which operates outside of what we might call nature, is working supernaturally, and so it does not follow any necessary laws, rules or procedures etc. As mere humans we cannot set up experiments to determine what is going on, if the results are outside a certain remit, ie. if they do not fit into a set of rules of some sort.

But as I said, if there is a god, and that god has any influence in the world, then that influence can be investigated. So for example, we can investigate the efficacy of prayer, using scientific study. Such studies have been done, and prayer has been found to be unreliable in the promotion of the curing of cancer patients. I believe that prayer may have some positive effects in peoples' lives, but such effects may be entirely placebo. If there really were prayers, answered by some god, using powers outside of nature, then that would be operating outside of any set of rules, laws, etc. which science could uncover and put to paper. But first, we would need to set up an experiment to show that there is some outcome from praying, an outcome which is set in motion by prayer, which could be demonstrated to be other than placebo in its effect, or not just some natural effect which we have not yet understood.

I do not view that as being a failure to search for an objective truth, as far as we are able. Merely inserting a god or some explanation outside of natural or material causes seems much more like a failure to search for truth, but rather an insertion of some unknowable, untestable speculation. Such an insertion does not derive any real knowledge IMHO !

So science does not in fact rule out explanations other than the material, but when put to the test, effects outside of the material have not been detected, nor been necessary. Furthermore, where in the past a god had to be invoked to explain phenomena, science has removed the need for that hypothesis in most cases.

There is much evidence of God for the open minded, for example using our logic to see that DNA could Never Code itself to Code itself to Replicate, it's an impossibly vicious circle. And experimentally proving prayer is like experimentally proving a son or daughter loves its parents. It's a relationship, and Prayer is a relationship, and if we pray to God just for a joke or to test Him, then He sees He is mocked, that doesn't bode well for a close relationship, with God, or with your spouse or child.

Nope.  Neither one of us knows that.  Just like neither one of us knows DNA came about through natural processes.  Your pre-existing assumptions lead you to say this sort of thing since it backs up what you want to believe.  I assume life did come to be through natural processes because I see no viable alternative .. BUT I do not argue that of course life came about because there is no clear alternative.  That would make a poor argument since I'd be using the conclusion as a premise .. just the way you do when you make the argument for design.

[Pulse]

C’mon OP, you cannot tell me that NDE's aren't real!
They're 100% true!

When someone is near death, the brain makes up all sorts of shite!

Death on the other hand....is what gives our lives meaning. Get it?

Omg, SHUSH it with the NDE stuff, Iggy!  *looks around*   Sick Ricky will hear!!!  

Actually interesting that you'd bring that up, Dr Eben Alexander, author of Proof of Heaven, a once very staunch Atheist who did not even believe in free will, is now a staunch believer 

(although not Christian) after an NDE. He describes in his book that during the NDE he was brain dead, as proved by his medical parameters at the time in the hospital, he is a 

Neurosurgeon, so we can't just say he doesn't know brain chemistry at near death events. In fact people with NDE's often describe what took place, in detail, during their surgery even 

though they were completely unconscious.

[ignoramus]

Guys, I take full responsibility for encouraging him. What's my punishment?

[Alex K]

Guys, I take full responsibility for encouraging him. What's my punishment?

Leading a life as meaningless pond scum on a meaningless planet in a meaningless universe is punishment enough, don't you think?

[ignoramus]

As long as I get to die in the end! And that's my best offer!

[Alex K]

As long as I die in the end! And that's my best offer!

Hey, if it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me...

[AceBoogie]

Hi everyone, I would like to present some points for atheists to consider and I trust the exchanges will be thoughtful and friendly. 


There are some very serious problems for atheists to consider;  

1)    R. Dawkins wrote the Universe has "no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." Dawkins, R., River out of Eden, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, London, p. 133, 1995.
        Why do atheists constantly use words like religion is evil, atheism good, when these terms are meaningless in a Godless Universe?

You would probably have to take this up with Mr. Dawkins, as I am not the one who said that.



2) If you were really an atheist, you would realize that we are ALL just rearranged pond scum and life is just a set of random Meaningless events in a random Meaningless Universe. 
    So as an atheist, why try so hard "Meaningfully" explaining  that in this utterly Meaningless Universe there's no deity?

    a) Possible responses maybe; Religion is dangerous and threatens our survival; BUT in a Godless Universe, why is humanity's survival better than extinction? If humans nuke one another out of existence, what difference will that make to the Universe?? 

You are conflating atheism with nihilism here. Also, why is humanity's survival better than extinction? Because I'm a human, not the universe. I like surviving. It's enjoyable. I assume more enjoyable than not surviving. The fuck?

3) Atheism; The Universe Caused itself, no First Cause needed; this requires blind faith and is counter-intuitive; very much the same as what atheists accuse religious people of, seems hypocritical doesn't it??

Once again, you're conflating atheism with other ideas and concepts. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any god or gods. That's it. Also, if god created the universe, who or what created god? Two can play at that game. And quite honestly we have a pretty damn good idea that we're right about the big bang, but we have to work with what we know and not attempt to speculate on every detail just because we want answers. However, hopefully one day we will have found the answers to some of these questions.

4) The Big Bang Theory is Full of Fudge factors that are an embarrassment to Cosmologists many of whom admit the theory is popular because it is well funded, but how is that an objective search for truth? 

Which cosmologists do you speak of? Do you have some references we could all look at?


 [snip] moderator note: welcome to AF, but please review our rules, thank you. We ask newcomers not post links until 30 days and 30 posts have accrued.



5)   Atheistic science these days is so Dogmatically wedded to Materialism, it cannot even begin to tell us what Consciousness is, the most basic principle of human existence. Doesn't it seem hypocritical that Atheism is so dogmatic?

Consciousness is the result of electrical activity in the brain. Very fascinating and interesting stuff. Also, you're once again conflating atheism with other ideas and concepts. "Atheism" makes no claim about consciousness. Atheism is a lack of belief in any god or gods. That's it.

 6)  And BTW atheism has led to some pretty strange philosophies, like that of the Church of Euthanasia; Save the Planet, Kill Yourself! How can Atheists counter such "logic"?

I literally have no clue wtf you're even talking about. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any god or gods. That's it. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

As a Christian I have experienced that no Atheist on earth has any convincing arguments to these most basic questions which I believe only the Christian religion can answer. I'll be honest, believing in Atheism would be so much easier in life because you can do whatever you want and think there is no consequences, but Ahteism seems so incredibly counter intuitive, that to even begin to take it seriously, one has to suspend all logic.

So you want answers, even if those answers are wrong? So much for intellectual honesty.

Thoughts? 
(Again please keep it friendly, Ive had too much abuse from atheists already just for asking simple questions, and that just seems further proof to me Atheism is a delusion).

Thoughts? You provide no interesting challenge or debate for me, or anyone else on this forum. Your vast misunderstanding of the simplest things proves you to be a worthless opponent in terms of a debate. You don't even grasp what the word "atheism" means. That is quite a hurdle for you to leap over I guess. Good luck to you. You'll need it.