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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 7, 2017 at 9:07 pm
(This post was last modified: February 7, 2017 at 9:10 pm by Simon Moon.)
(February 7, 2017 at 8:44 pm)Lek Wrote: (February 7, 2017 at 8:37 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: But not having a scientific answer to this, and any of the other questions you raised, does not get close for the need to invoke a god for an answer.
The list of things that were once explained by invoking a god, that are better explained by natural mechanisms, is endless.
The list of things that were once explained by natural mechanisms, that are better explained by a god, is none existent.
The list of things that we currently do not have a scientific explanation for, does not mean they fall into the latter list, by default.
Sometimes, the answer "we don't know yet" is the best answer.
I'll agree with what you said. But the list of things that we believed were scientifically true at on time, we no longer believe to be so is long. How many things that we believe to be scientifically true now will we not believe to be true later?
Any of the things that we once believed we had a scientific answer for, that now have a different explanation, are due to science finding more information. That is one of the best things about science, is that it is self correcting when new information is discovered.
Quote:Also, why not try to find answers to questions in ways other than natural science?
If you come up with another way, that is equal to, or better than, the scientific method as a path to truth, please let the world know.
All I see from theists are 'methods' that are susceptible to: wishful thinking, confirmation bias, early life indoctrination, sharpshooter's fallacy, circular logic, etc, etc.
Please explain this other way you mention, and how it is not vulnerable to any of the above.
Quote:Why should I accept all scientific answers if they may be shown to be wrong at some later point?
As David Hume once said, "the wise man proportions his beliefs to the evidence".
Nothing in science is accepted with absolute certainty. All scientific beliefs are provisional.
Again, one of the major advantages of science over religion.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 7, 2017 at 9:07 pm
(This post was last modified: February 7, 2017 at 9:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Well, Lek.....why should you accept any answer if it can't be shown to be right at any time?
Magic.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 7, 2017 at 9:08 pm
(This post was last modified: February 7, 2017 at 9:09 pm by Simon Moon.)
Duplicate post.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 7, 2017 at 9:17 pm
(February 7, 2017 at 7:56 pm)Lek Wrote: (February 7, 2017 at 7:37 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Just curious, what do you think there is that naturalism cannot explain?
Whether the universe, or anything, always existed without a beginning or if there was once nothing and then something came into being.
Is the universe infinite? If not, is there anything beyond the edge of the universe or nothing at all?
Is there a reason for the universe to be here?
There are there physician documented cases of sudden recoveries from terminal diseases. Why did these occur?
What causes a woman to speak in a deep man's voice or a language that she never knew how to speak or in a dead language?
Not sure about that last claim; for terminal diseases, spontaneous remission of cancer is well documented. As for the first three, modern cosmology has addressed those.
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 7, 2017 at 9:23 pm
Lol. Lek's religious views says he has Jesus Christ.
I always thought Jesus swung that way.
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 7, 2017 at 11:17 pm
(This post was last modified: February 7, 2017 at 11:22 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(February 7, 2017 at 7:37 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (February 7, 2017 at 4:47 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't care what Occam's Razor or any other philosophy says. I just want to know God, whether he exists as one or as many gods. Naturalism doesn't offer plausible explanations for everything, so I can't fall back on it for answers to all my questions. If someone is healed overnight from a terminal disease I can think that even though science can't explain it there is a natural explanation that we haven't discovered yet, which is one possible explanation. I can also think that there might be a supernatural explanation and pursue that, but I'm not going to limit myself to not exploring all avenues.
Just curious, what do you think there is that naturalism cannot explain?
Oh let's see...being-as-such...intentionality...moral imperatives...
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm
(February 7, 2017 at 11:17 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: being-as-such Magic.
Quote:intentionality
Magic.
Quote:moral imperatives
Magic.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 7, 2017 at 11:47 pm
(February 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm)Khemikal Wrote: (February 7, 2017 at 11:17 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: being-as-such Magic.
Quote:intentionality
Magic.
Quote:moral imperatives
Magic.
Fantastic! You summed up the naturalist position perfectly. Naturalism cannot account for any of those, not even in theory, so naturalists just wish them into existence with brute facts and promissory notes.
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 7, 2017 at 11:58 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2017 at 12:08 am by The Grand Nudger.)
If you say so, Neo, it must be so.
It couldn't possibly be an issue of you not -liking- the explanations naturalism is fully capable of offering for each, could it?
It couldn't possibly be that having the inanity of your magical alternative pushed at you without all the obfuscating verbiage, you reel against it's idiotic simplicity and strongly desire to pin it on "the other guy"?
You know what else might explain our exchange, though...what with naturalism not being capable.......magic. As you just explained yourself, they couldn't have intentionally done any of that wishing by any natural means.......
Perhaps either of you two magic proponents can help me out here. I don't know how to make you happy. You introduce the possibility of magic as a legitimate explanation for some phenomena x, by way of rationalizations regarding what some other system can and can't explain...or it's fallibility, the point seeming to be to allow for magic. Then, when it's simply given to you, you act as if someone's shoved a used sex toy in your face?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 9:38 am
Hey, I'm not the one who believes there's a ghost in the machine, i.e. emergent properties magical thinking. Maybe you can spark up a computer sometime and introduce me to Casper when he 'emerges'
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