There is no doubt a god, the question is what is it?

[Jesster]

I'd say "that's a first"

You would say...it would not a be a first.

No, I would say "that's a first". You've only proven how full of shit your arguments can be in the past. That hasn't changed yet, either.

If you remember what Plato talks about and Socrates and the navigator in the just city, so much of the parables in Quran will make sense.

Only to presuppositionalists like you.

[Mystic]

I try my best to do that on Islamic forums. Some of them banned me (You guys have a lot more patience) and some of them did not. Some of them I stopped going to and I present the case of my creed on Islamic forums.

I even attempted to show Twelver Shiites that we shouldn't blindly follow clergy.

The thing is almost everyone is claiming I am arrogant.... 

I am just trying to get people to think about things that are essential questions to us humans....

For example, should we rely on humans be it ourselves or others to guide us? Or should we rely only on humans who are appointed by God and have clear proof? The latter to me always has been the solution but people to follow the chosen humans in a lazy way mix their authority with humans not appointed by God. And so the cycle of corruption continued despite the clear evidence and warnings of the Quran.

I am glad that you admit that we have much more patience than your correligionists. Well, not me. I am Portuguese and we live in peace. We have a mosque and I personally know Sheik Munir. A truly worthy person, unlike you. Look at what your religion done to its homeland. You can throw blame onto others, but in the end, you are responsible for preaching to atheists when your own people are murderes.

Contemplate that and the fact that we live in peace. All your bullshit threads are nothing but fleeting words. If you truly have a fight, is to bring your own people to that value you speak of.

And forgive me for being angry. I saw a syrian dad with 2 twin babies dying of gas. You keep preaching boy.

I am not going to turn this into a political discussion but with colonialism to the current present, the west has been the bigger murders and very arrogant in they way they try to shove down their culture to other people and their perceptions as if they are absolutes truths though they preach as if they are peacemakers and people seeking enlightenment from others and to bring to others.

Muslims have been bad, and are still bad, but so has Atheist governments, and so has the west in their supposed secular enlightenment. No one is peaceful.

[Brian37]

Evil is thinking the world owes you. The world doesn't owe you or me shit. 

We owe each other justice which is giving each other our due, what we all are due is love.

---

See if you can spot the pattern.

"The real arrogance is feeling too proud to worship Jesus"
"The real arrogance is felling too proud to worship Yahweh"
"The real arrogance is felling too proud to worship Buddha"

I love ABBA, are you too proud to not listen to ABBA? Is that a matter of pride that you don't listen to them, or merely that it is not your thing?

You got a club you like so what. Others have clubs they like. It isn't about pride that we reject your claims anymore than it is pride for you to reject the claims of Christians and Jews. 

We don't reject ANY religion or god claim out of arrogance or pride, but merely for one reason having NOTHING to do with you personally, we reject ALL religions and God claims for lack of evidence. NOTHING MORE.

We don't reject ALLAH or Jesus or Yahweh or Buddha or Vishnu out of pride, but all for the same reason. LACK OF EVIDENCE. Stop thinking your club is special to us.

Please spare us from your fake indignation.

If I can prove my creed with just Plato and Socrates, what would you say?

Oh right Plato and Socrates point to Allah, got it.

No no no, they point to ABBA, our one true religion, the band that will save humanity if only everyone would love Dancing Queen, and I can prove that with Plato and Socrates.

Hey buddy, I have read Plato and Socrates, but no, they don't point to the Koran or the bible or Buddha or the Hindu Vedas.

If you must know, while I think some of Plato's ideas were good, one big one he had fucked up human thought, which is why we have to deal now with dreamy eyed people out of all religions and political views.

Plato had this bullshit idea that if you simply thought about something long enough, you could find that perfect "essence" of that thing. Like if you simply thought about the "perfect rabbit" you could find the "essence of rabbit". Problem with that idea is far to many humans loved it. The idea of perfect form unfortunately spread and infected religion and politics and humans have been fighting to create bullshit utopias in the forms of religions and political and economic views. Not just yours.

Plato did value the idea of questioning, which is where the story of Plato's Apology about Socrates comes from, and where his Allegory Of The Cave, came from. Problem with his idea of questioning, he had no clue of how important the things we have now in scientific method are in reality. He didn't have the modern benefit of large samples and control groups or peer review, and his idea of "essence" negated that and twisted the good idea of questioning to mean "argue for". 

Religion doesn't teach you to be objective, nor do political or economic views. Those are arguments for a position, not neutrally tested facts with independent peer review.

So now you are arguing Plato and Socrates? So what still would not make the polytheistic gods of their time real, or Hindus gods real, or the god of the bible real, or Buddhist right. 

An apology is not neutral which is why it is called an apology. Science is neutral and can be neutrally tested and does not require an apology. Nor does scientific method seek perfection or an "essence", it merely seeks fact.

[Mystic]

Do you wish to discuss Socrates and Plato? Or are you going to just strawman and oversimplify their arguments?

[Jesster]

Are you actually going to discuss Socrates and Plato, or are you just going to assert that they support you without showing why?

[Mystic]

Are you actually going to discuss Socrates and Plato, or are you just going to assert that they support you without showing why?

I am going to discuss it. But I want to see if Brian wants to discuss it with me or not first.

[Jesster]

I am going to discuss it. But I want to see if Brian wants to discuss it with me or not first.

It seems he's doing that already. Either make your arguments or try something else, MK.

[Mystic]

I am going to discuss it. But I want to see if Brian wants to discuss it with me or not first.

It seems he's doing that already. Either make your arguments or try something else, MK.

I will make a new thread about it in two weeks. Have to study for exams. Will be gone till then. I hope to see you there.

[Brian37]

Do you wish to discuss Socrates and Plato? Or are you going to just strawman and oversimplify their arguments?

I just did, you not liking my answer is your baggage.

Plato fucked up with the idea of "essence" it taught humans to chase a perfect society, a perfect world, that bled into religion and politics, NOT JUST YOUR RELIGION but other religions and not just religion, but politics and economic views. It taught humans to stupidly chase utopias.

An apology is not an argument from neutrality, it is an argument from personal bias. 

There is no such thing as a utopia. Not for you, not for Christians, not for Jews, not for Buddhists not even for communists or socialists. 

Plato and Socrates DO NOT POINT to the Koran or Torah or Talmud or Bible or Buddha or the Vedas. Not my baggage someone stupidly convinced you they do. Not my baggage you fell for that crap.

Plato and Socrates had some nice stories but Plato was NOT right about everything he guessed at. 

Don't know ho much more I can dumb down my answer for you.

[Jesster]

I will make a new thread about it in two weeks. Have to study for exams. Will be gone till then. I hope to see you there.

You spam in new threads with your preaching all the time. Tell me something I wasn't already expecting.

You could try to actually get to the point in a topic sometime. That would definitely surprise me. It would be far better than dodging around the point to avoid the responsibility of backing up your assertions properly like you usually do.