(April 9, 2017 at 12:40 pm)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:

(April 9, 2017 at 11:45 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The real arrogance is feeling too proud to worship God.

 choose their own path? 

This is the height of evil and arrogance, because choosing your own path when you see everyone on different paths and know you won't reach the truth that way, is the height of arrogance, to think you can do it without guidance from a Guide is the height of arrogance. Thinking is good, but it should not cause you to feel no need to listen to others, and certainly, not cause you to feel no need to give holy books a chance to guide you.

Quote:With all due respect to your beliefs, given the existence of people who do not think in a theistic/religious manner, then how can the teachings and messages of any religion have any meaning or value to them? 

Did you see the working backward approach I talked about?   Yes if you aren't going to give a God a chance to talk to humanity and say he has to talk to you directly or say believers have to prove him before I give him a chance of guiding me to himself by a book from him and leaders appointed by him, then yes it won't apply.

But the best arguments for God's existence and all the answers you seek for guidance, who is more fit to do that but God who knows the secrets of all the hearts and the inner talents they all have as well as their spiritual sickness and evils?

You don't have to assume Quran is true to come to it neutrally, you don't have to come to it neutrally to give it a shot, but you should be truthful to yourself and not be haste in concluding things. The same goes for any holy book.

There is indeed proofs in ourselves and in the horizons, and the book manifests those proofs and guides us by them.  There is some solid arguments for the oneness of God I would never ever have thought about where it not for the Quran.

The Quran indeed contains clear proofs and the best arguments for God in my view. It also contains clear guidance for the structure of his religion in all times, the Archetype design that is there in all times, and shows the perfection of his plan in sealing revelations, protecting the final reminder, and establishing a link to him in form of a book coupled with leaders who guide by his command.

Even if you don't know God exists, you may want to see arguments against Deism. Because a lot of Atheists will say, if God exists, it does no difference, because if they found out, they would just believe a Deistic God.

Well Quran has arguments against Deism, polytheism, and Atheism. 

The thing is if you can disprove polytheism, you naturally will prove Theism. So the arguments against polytheism in many places are in fact arguments for God and his existence. Why he can't have equals why he is to be valued with utmost love and value with everything pailing to the value.

If you understand why an absolute perspective is needed for real objective value of our personhood to exist, you would understand something at least. Then it just becomes a matter of believing you have objective value or not. Seeing the link you are created by, the vision that maintains you.2

(April 9, 2017 at 12:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: ^I hit a soft spot did I?

Yes. You are the one preaching to us when your correligionists are murderers, assassins of innocent childs. You preach to us about love. You should teach that to them. They are much more in need than I.

When you become man enough to do and feel love, let me know, little boy.

(April 9, 2017 at 12:52 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 9, 2017 at 12:40 pm)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:  choose their own path? 

This is the height of evil and arrogance, because choosing your own path when you see everyone on different paths and know you won't reach the truth that way, is the height of arrogance, to think you can do it without guidance from a Guide is the height of arrogance. Thinking is good, but it should not cause you to feel no need to listen to others, and certainly, not cause you to feel no need to give holy books a chance to guide you.

Quote:With all due respect to your beliefs, given the existence of people who do not think in a theistic/religious manner, then how can the teachings and messages of any religion have any meaning or value to them? 

Did you see the working backward approach I talked about?   Yes if you aren't going to give a God a chance to talk to humanity and say he has to talk to you directly or say believers have to prove him before I give him a chance of guiding me to himself by a book from him and leaders appointed by him, then yes it won't apply.

But the best arguments for God's existence and all the answers you seek for guidance, who is more fit to do that but God who knows the secrets of all the hearts and the inner talents they all have as well as their spiritual sickness and evils?

You don't have to assume Quran is true to come to it neutrally, you don't have to come to it neutrally to give it a shot, but you should be truthful to yourself and not be haste in concluding things. The same goes for any holy book.

There is indeed proofs in ourselves and in the horizons, and the book manifests those proofs and guides us by them.  There is some solid arguments for the oneness of God I would never ever have thought about where it not for the Quran.

The Quran indeed contains clear proofs and the best arguments for God in my view. It also contains clear guidance for the structure of his religion in all times, the Archetype design that is there in all times, and shows the perfection of his plan in sealing revelations, protecting the final reminder, and establishing a link to him in form of a book coupled with leaders who guide by his command.

Even if you don't know God exists, you may want to see arguments against Deism. Because a lot of Atheists will say, if God exists, it does no difference, because if they found out, they would just believe a Deistic God.

Well Quran has arguments against Deism, polytheism, and Atheism. 

The thing is if you can disprove polytheism, you naturally will prove Theism. So the arguments against polytheism in many places are in fact arguments for God and his existence. Why he can't have equals why he is to be valued with utmost love and value with everything pailing to the value.

If you understand why an absolute perspective is needed for real objective value of our personhood to exist, you would understand something at least. Then it just becomes a matter of believing you have objective value or not. Seeing the link you are created by, the vision that maintains you.2

Evil is thinking the world owes you. The world doesn't owe you or me shit. This planet was around long before humans and it will be around long after we go extinct.

The only thing right now humans DO owe each other is accepting nobody owns a monopoly on our planet. The only thing humans owe each other is to foster cooperation and non violence and more stability for more workers. But outside that you are not the center of the planet, nor is your religion. I am not the center of the planet either.

(April 9, 2017 at 12:40 pm)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:

(April 9, 2017 at 11:45 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The real arrogance is feeling too proud to worship God.

What if somebody does not worship any god because that is honestly how he or she chooses to think?  Is it arrogant if people sincerely wish to think for themselves and choose their own path?  With all due respect to your beliefs, given the existence of people who do not think in a theistic/religious manner, then how can the teachings and messages of any religion have any meaning or value to them?  Must all people think alike in order to find truth and meaning in life, or can truth and meaning also be found via diversity of thought?

Hmmm you do have a calmer temper than I do my friend. Live long and prosper.

(April 9, 2017 at 12:57 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(April 9, 2017 at 12:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: ^I hit a soft spot did I?

Yes. You are the one preaching to us when your correligionists are murderers, assassins of innocent childs. You preach to us about love. You should teach that to them. They are much more in need than I.

When you become man enough to do and feel love, let me know, little boy.

I try my best to do that on Islamic forums. Some of them banned me (You guys have a lot more patience) and some of them did not. Some of them I stopped going to and I present the case of my creed on Islamic forums.

I even attempted to show Twelver Shiites that we shouldn't blindly follow clergy.

The thing is almost everyone is claiming I am arrogant.... 

I am just trying to get people to think about things that are essential questions to us humans....

For example, should we rely on humans be it ourselves or others to guide us? Or should we rely only on humans who are appointed by God and have clear proof? The latter to me always has been the solution but people to follow the chosen humans in a lazy way mix their authority with humans not appointed by God. And so the cycle of corruption continued despite the clear evidence and warnings of the Quran.

(April 9, 2017 at 11:45 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The real arrogance is feeling too proud to worship God.

See if you can spot the pattern.

"The real arrogance is feeling too proud to worship Jesus"
"The real arrogance is felling too proud to worship Yahweh"
"The real arrogance is felling too proud to worship Buddha"

I love ABBA, are you too proud to not listen to ABBA? Is that a matter of pride that you don't listen to them, or merely that it is not your thing?

You got a club you like so what. Others have clubs they like. It isn't about pride that we reject your claims anymore than it is pride for you to reject the claims of Christians and Jews. 

We don't reject ANY religion or god claim out of arrogance or pride, but merely for one reason having NOTHING to do with you personally, we reject ALL religions and God claims for lack of evidence. NOTHING MORE.

We don't reject ALLAH or Jesus or Yahweh or Buddha or Vishnu out of pride, but all for the same reason. LACK OF EVIDENCE. Stop thinking your club is special to us.

Please spare us from your fake indignation.

(April 9, 2017 at 12:58 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Evil is thinking the world owes you. The world doesn't owe you or me shit. 

We owe each other justice which is giving each other our due, what we all are due is love.

---

(April 9, 2017 at 1:11 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(April 9, 2017 at 11:45 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The real arrogance is feeling too proud to worship God.

See if you can spot the pattern.

"The real arrogance is feeling too proud to worship Jesus"
"The real arrogance is felling too proud to worship Yahweh"
"The real arrogance is felling too proud to worship Buddha"

I love ABBA, are you too proud to not listen to ABBA? Is that a matter of pride that you don't listen to them, or merely that it is not your thing?

You got a club you like so what. Others have clubs they like. It isn't about pride that we reject your claims anymore than it is pride for you to reject the claims of Christians and Jews. 

We don't reject ANY religion or god claim out of arrogance or pride, but merely for one reason having NOTHING to do with you personally, we reject ALL religions and God claims for lack of evidence. NOTHING MORE.

We don't reject ALLAH or Jesus or Yahweh or Buddha or Vishnu out of pride, but all for the same reason. LACK OF EVIDENCE. Stop thinking your club is special to us.

Please spare us from your fake indignation.

If I can prove my creed with just Plato and Socrates, what would you say?

(April 9, 2017 at 1:11 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If I can prove my creed with just Plato and Socrates, what would you say?

I'd say "that's a first"

(April 9, 2017 at 1:13 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(April 9, 2017 at 1:11 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If I can prove my creed with just Plato and Socrates, what would you say?

I'd say "that's a first"

You would say...it would not a be a first. In fact, much of Quran is allusions to their words almost as if predicted us uncovering the Greek philosophy treasures.  If you remember what Plato talks about and Socrates and the navigator in the just city, so much of the parables in Quran will make sense.

In fact, there exist some hadiths which some Muslims did believe in, that Socrates was originally a  Prophet. I can't vouch for that being a reality, but if you study Socrates and Plato, much of the Quran is emphasizing what they emphasized on with the flow and parables they emphasized on.

(April 9, 2017 at 1:03 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 9, 2017 at 12:57 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Yes. You are the one preaching to us when your correligionists are murderers, assassins of innocent childs. You preach to us about love. You should teach that to them. They are much more in need than I.

When you become man enough to do and feel love, let me know, little boy.

I try my best to do that on Islamic forums. Some of them banned me (You guys have a lot more patience) and some of them did not. Some of them I stopped going to and I present the case of my creed on Islamic forums.

I even attempted to show Twelver Shiites that we shouldn't blindly follow clergy.

The thing is almost everyone is claiming I am arrogant.... 

I am just trying to get people to think about things that are essential questions to us humans....

For example, should we rely on humans be it ourselves or others to guide us? Or should we rely only on humans who are appointed by God and have clear proof? The latter to me always has been the solution but people to follow the chosen humans in a lazy way mix their authority with humans not appointed by God. And so the cycle of corruption continued despite the clear evidence and warnings of the Quran.

I am glad that you admit that we have much more patience than your correligionists. Well, not me. I am Portuguese and we live in peace. We have a mosque and I personally know Sheik Munir. A truly worthy person, unlike you. Look at what your religion done to its homeland. You can throw blame onto others, but in the end, you are responsible for preaching to atheists when your own people are murderes.

Contemplate that and the fact that we live in peace. All your bullshit threads are nothing but fleeting words. If you truly have a fight, is to bring your own people to that value you speak of.

And forgive me for being angry. I saw a syrian dad with 2 twin babies dying of gas. You keep preaching boy.