Paul's 500 witnesses.

[John V]

Wow, really amazing.

Get any New Testament textbook used in any New Testament studies at any public university.

The point is the blatant contradiction. You endorse a revisionist historical theory at the beginning of the post, then at the end of the post you say you don't do that. THere were other problems in the post, but that just stuck out like a sore thumb.

[Brian37]

I certainly don't mind being corrected. Thank you. But why is it then my long term impression stems from seeing others point to Constantine and Christianity?

Most likely because xtians love to mischaracterize the Edict of Milan in 313 as being Constantine "legalizing" xtianity when in fact it granted religious freedom to all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Milan

The Edict is popularly thought to concern only Christianity, and even to make Christianity the official religion of the Empire (which recognition did not actually occur until the Edict of Thessalonica in 380). Indeed, the Edict expressly grants religious liberty not only to Christians, who had been the object of special persecution, but goes even further and grants liberty to all religions:

In the same vein xtians love to claim that the Emperor Decius "persecuted" them by requiring them to take a special loyalty oath c 250 when in fact Decius required EVERYONE to take the oath.  (The mid-3d century was a bad time for the Romans.  The Sassanids kept kicking the shit out of them and returning soldiers brought back a serious plague.)  But in spite of their fucking paranoia, xtians were not the target. 

The main persecution of xtians was by Diocletian in 303 and lasted a couple of years.  From this, the fucks created a cottage industry of martyrs and bullshit stories to justify their own persecutions of pagans later on.

Thank you. I like being corrected, and what you pointed out does not shock me in the least. 

I think lots of this false martyrdom on the early Christians part stems from Nero using them as scapegoats when Rome burned. Now again, am I wrong about that too? 

Outside that. Yea, seems the same false persecution all religions like to claim. Humans never like to take into account time place and context. Christians and Muslims and Jews still pull that shit today. And when they say "Look at what they did to me" I say, respond with "who when and where?" 

I am not going to presume any label is always the victim or always the aggressor. Geography matters, and time in in human history matters.

[Minimalist]

I endorse "The Myth of Persecution" by Candida Moss.  It shreds the bullshit of xtian martyrology which started as being a way to con the dolts and ended up being a cash cow.

I have an electronic version.  If you'd like it, PM an email address.

[Brian37]

I endorse "The Myth of Persecution" by Candida Moss.  It shreds the bullshit of xtian martyrology which started as being a way to con the dolts and ended up being a cash cow.

I have an electronic version.  If you'd like it, PM an email address.

Would love to read it, but I haven't used e-mail in billions of years, I don't even know my own passwords on my cable or gmail account. 

If you were to pm it on FB I could access it. But I could google the title too and maybe order it myself.

I never use e-mail. I contact everyone I know through pm on FB and twitter and at best phone text.

---

I just read the wiki article on that book and author, and yes, I agree, not just in Christianity, but in all of human history, the local label of any and all religions has a tendency to exaggerate reality even if parts of the legend are based on some minor reality.

Socrates is a very good older parallel story to the Jesus character. In Plato's apology Socrates pisses off all the teachers, senators, and oracles and is characterized as upsetting the social norms, he is the upstart, the provoker. The powers that be don't like him upsetting their social norms, so they put him on trial, and convict him of corrupting the youth of Athens and force him to drink Hemlock. 

I see that as no different as the Jesus motif outside details.

[Minimalist]

FB is one internet vice I never fell for.

[The Valkyrie]

Don't forget the rule that you don't lie in round numbers.

There were actually 502 witnesses, but Jeff and Steve were looking the wrong way.

Apparently those Hebrew teenagers are hot (just ask god!)

[Brian37]

FB is one internet vice I never fell for.

That's ok, I have a friend who just ordered the book for me, he will be bringing it to me in  June when he comes to visit.

[Minimalist]

Well worth your time.  The bullshittery behind the saints that the church invented is truly astounding.... and quite lucrative.

[Brian37]

Well worth your time.  The bullshittery behind the saints that the church invented is truly astounding.... and quite lucrative.

I'd bet there are not that many Catholics outside Rome that know that they have the memorial of a brutal dictator sitting in St Peter's Square in the Vatican City.

[John V]

Even taking theology courses at Moody Bible College can be quite an unpleasant jolt for new students with a strong Literalist/Inerrancy background.

It is indeed amazing what most all ministers/preechurs/reverends/pastors are actually taught in churchy school and the amount of it they NEVER use in a sermon lest they upset the pew warmers.

So much of the stuff atheists post here regarding inherent problems with Christian dogma and strictures is in fact well known to pastors, it's when the pew warmers start posting here and have to confront incongruities like Jesus being crucified twice according to scripture that I find it amazing they don't already know.  Think how much bible study is done, how many sermons they listen too, yet coming here and surprise, surprise, Jesus done been nailed up twice and they don't already know it!!   Their pastors know it, they just never put it in a sermon lest the sheeples rise up and torch the church building out of religious outrage, apparently.

Maybe pastors don't teach it because they think it's bullshit.