Can prayer change God's perfect plan?

[Minimalist]

If our very identities are determined by God,

That's a huge "if" you have at the beginning there.  I don't suppose you have any evidence to back that up, huh?









Didn't think so.

[Brian37]

If you do not understand something ask a question

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But that's just what you're doing, Dick.

If you think I have changed or try to change anything, then you either do not know what is going on or do not understand the nature of the topic.

We agree you have not changed, but we do know what is going on, it is the case for followers of every religion. You found something you like and you bought it.

[Edwardo Piet]

Right, I personally agree it is all predetermined, but I'm trying to talk to CL starting from her point of view.  I'm trying to point out the logical inconsistency in her argument.  Sometimes that means I discuss, for the sake of argument, things that I don't agree with or believe in, like God or free will.  
We all talk about God did this or God did that in here, even though we don't believe in him.  Same thing here.

I'd like her to answer my question.

Yeah. I know. I was just being pedantic. I do that sometimes. It's like an itch I have to scratch. I'm sorry if it's annoying

[Catholic_Lady]

I appreciate it. 

Though I feel like I've already answered that question and given my explanations. I'm not sure how else I can say the same thing.

Ok, let me try again.

"Explain to yourself first, and then anyone here, how anything is free if it cannot be any other way because the outcome is already known by God."

So far, you're explanation is simply that God stands outside of time and space, but this does not even begin to answer the question, that only explains HOW he experiences all things (and not very well at that), it does not address at all how that gives you or anyone free will.  You've simply sidestepped the question, not answered it.

I feel like that is answering it though. Let's try this. Imagine you see me grabbing a slice of cheese pizza instead of pepperoni. You know I chose cheese because you're seeing me do it, right? That's God as well, seeing us making our choices. Except that's how it is for God at all moments of time. Not just in the present.

For instance, right now, you have the "choice" to respond to me or not.  God already knows which way that will be.  How are you choosing it, then?  Can you possibly CHOOSE the other way that God has not forseen?? 

If the answer to the underlined is no, then how is this a choice at all?

Again, God is not "forseeing". That would mean He's in the present, looking at the future. Rather, to Him there is no past, present, or future. He's seeing it happen all at once.

[Minimalist]

We agree you have not changed,

He certainly has not improved.

[Aroura]

Look, I know theist absolutely MUST fit free-will into heir thinking, else their God is creating people who will be damned not by their own "free will", but because they are literally made that way by "Him" and cannot be any other way.  So I don't expect to be changing theists positions on this.  It is an absolutely necessary foundation for them to cling to for their god to not be a monster.  So they will do some award winning mental gymnastics to make it all fit.

Personally, I found letting go of God easier than letting go of free-will. It's all quite terrifying to think a) you are just a preprogrammed robot going through the motions you were programmed to go through, and b) Nothing is fair, there is no balance in the end.  No inherent meaning, and in the end, you wink out like a light and literally cease to exist.

That's all scary as fuck!  I still get anxiety pretty much daily from trying to work through this.  Reality is harsh, and the fact is, most people simply are not equipped to give up the comfort of the fantasy and face these very cold, very hard truths.  This isn't to call them children, or stupid, or weak.  Sometimes, I feel that way but that is just anger and frustration talking.  The reality is we are biologically driven to find meaning and feel free.  These things help keep the species alive, when we were primitive, they help keep up from losing the will to live and to procreate.  Natural selection makes this, up until this point, and advantageous adaptations.

I think we have become so technologically advanced so rapidly that these adaptations are no longer advantageous, and are perhaps actually going to cause massive destruction, but evolution is too slow to catch up the whole human race in time.  

If anyone out there really are determinists, then blaming people (in a negative emotional way) for not understanding all of this is futile.  We know they are just a product of their DNA and environment, and cannot be any other way.

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Ok, let me try again.

"Explain to yourself first, and then anyone here, how anything is free if it cannot be any other way because the outcome is already known by God."

So far, you're explanation is simply that God stands outside of time and space, but this does not even begin to answer the question, that only explains HOW he experiences all things (and not very well at that), it does not address at all how that gives you or anyone free will.  You've simply sidestepped the question, not answered it.

I feel like that is answering it though. Let's try this. Imagine you see me grabbing a slice of cheese pizza instead of pepperoni. You know I chose cheese because you're seeing me do it, right? That's God as well, seeing us making our choices. Except that's how it is for God at all moments of time. Not just in the present.

For instance, right now, you have the "choice" to respond to me or not.  God already knows which way that will be.  How are you choosing it, then?  Can you possibly CHOOSE the other way that God has not forseen?? 

If the answer to the underlined is no, then how is this a choice at all?

Again, God is not "forseeing". That would mean He's in the present, looking at the future. Rather, to Him there is no past, present, or future. He's seeing it happen all at once.

You are still just explaining how he sees it, not how that allows you to have choice.  We have already all agreed he sees it all for the sake of this argument.  How or where does not matter.  Saying that he sees the result of our choices does not explain how that makes those choices "Free".

(I forgot to address your example.  Yes, if I see you pick pepperoni pizza, that shows I know what you will do.  That does not demonstrate that you had the FREE CHOICE to choose cheese!  Doing a thing and/or knowing someone will do a thing in no way demonstrates that they had the free will to chose to do the other thing, and actually tacitly demonstrates the opposite.)

Answer this question:  Can you chose to do a thing that has not been seen (forseen, or past seen, or seen all at once, whatever you like).?  Can you chose to do a thing that god does not already know you will do? Yes or no. Just answer this and then we can move on.

[Catholic_Lady]

I feel like that is answering it though. Let's try this. Imagine you see me grabbing a slice of cheese pizza instead of pepperoni. You know I chose cheese because you're seeing me do it, right? That's God as well, seeing us making our choices. Except that's how it is for God at all moments of time. Not just in the present.


Again, God is not "forseeing". That would mean He's in the present, looking at the future. Rather, to Him there is no past, present, or future. He's seeing it happen all at once.

You are still just explaining how he sees it, not how that allows you to have choice.  We have already all agreed he sees it all for the sake of this argument.  How or where does not matter.  Saying that he sees the result of our choices does not explain how that makes those choices "Free".

(I forgot to address your example.  Yes, if I see you pick pepperoni pizza, that shows I know what you will do.  That does not demonstrate that you had the FREE CHOICE to choose cheese!  Doing a thing and/or knowing someone will do a thing in no way demonstrates that they had the free will to chose to do the other thing, and actually tacitly demonstrates the opposite.)

Hm? I'm not sure I follow. The scenario is that both cheese and pepperoni are available, and you see me freely choosing cheese, therefore you know I chose cheese by my own free will.

Answer this question:  Can you chose to do a thing that has not been seen (forseen, or past seen, or seen all at once, whatever you like).?  Can you chose to do a thing that god does not already know you will do? Yes or no. Just answer this and then we can move on.

I can choose whatever I want. And I do. The thing is, since God can see all of time, He is already seeing me making my choices, whatever they are.

[Edwardo Piet]

Suppose you had the ability to look back and watch your entire past in as much detail as you want, knowing you can't change it.  Would that make all the multiple choices you made in the past any less free?

No. It wouldn't make a difference whether I looked back into the past or not. Either way I couldn't have done otherwise. Same with the future and the present.

 That's all omnipotence means.

That absolutely is not what omnipotence means.

To know all things and events.

No, that's what omniscience means.

And we're talking about the future, not the past.

Fuck I just realized you're too dumb to argue with lol.

Dude... if the future is determined then that means we can't do otherwise in an incompatabilist sense.

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@ Aroura

If you ever wanna talk about anxiety issues regarding lack of free will I can totally relate and I'm here if you ever wanna discuss it.

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If anyone out there really are determinists, then blaming people (in a negative emotional way) for not understanding all of this is futile.  We know they are just a product of their DNA and environment, and cannot be any other way.

Gosh sister.. you're like the only non-celebrity (i.e. Sam Harris and Galen Strawson. Lol.) besides myself that I know who feels that way. I just wanna hug ya for that! I feel less alone now.

[Fake Messiah]

We were in paradise; humanity showed an inclination to believing and following Satan over God; so God sent both Satan and humanity to earth; bashing each other until the hour.

Again, like I said before: If you believe God is omnipotent is it not logical to conclude that he could have made an improved human who still possessed free will - one who was more likely to choose freely the course of good.
And, what about the hundreds of millions of living things that died terrible deaths long before humans appeared on the scene?

Being omnipotent means He has the power to control everything (within His own nature), but that doesn't mean He does.

Yeah this sounds like God from the movie "Oh, God!" played by George Burns where he admits he isn't perfect. He says he would do things differently the next time he creates a universe. For one thing, he would not give the avocado such a large pit.

He chose to create a natural world where things happen as they will.

This is called living in denial.
So malaria virus just happened and we should not blame god? Just like tsunamis that kill hundreds of thousands of people. More than nine million children die each year because of poverty. That's approximately twenty-five thousand each day.

[Catholic_Lady]

You are still just explaining how he sees it, not how that allows you to have choice.  We have already all agreed he sees it all for the sake of this argument.  How or where does not matter.  Saying that he sees the result of our choices does not explain how that makes those choices "Free".

(I forgot to address your example.  Yes, if I see you pick pepperoni pizza, that shows I know what you will do.  That does not demonstrate that you had the FREE CHOICE to choose cheese!  Doing a thing and/or knowing someone will do a thing in no way demonstrates that they had the free will to chose to do the other thing, and actually tacitly demonstrates the opposite.)

Hm? I'm not sure I follow. The scenario is that both cheese and pepperoni are available, and you see me freely choosing cheese, therefore you know I chose cheese by my own free will.    

Answer this question:  Can you chose to do a thing that has not been seen (forseen, or past seen, or seen all at once, whatever you like).?  Can you chose to do a thing that god does not already know you will do? Yes or no. Just answer this and then we can move on.

I can choose whatever I want. And I do. The thing is, since God can see all of time, He is already seeing me making my choices, whatever they are.

I'll also add that you're still looking at this the wrong way. You're still looking at it in terms of God being in the present and looking at the future, and asking if the future can still change from what God has seen. Being outside of time is different from that, as I have explained in the best way I can.