I lost my Soul

[Astreja]

Almost all the atheists here especially the hard nosed ones. How do you know that they would have understood and even if they would have it doesn't matter because god is more concerned about the eternal destination of people than give a science lesson.

Tell your imaginary best buddy to abolish hell if it's all that concerned about mortals' "eternal destination."

[Mister Agenda]

You need to show that the people he was taking to didn't already believe in hell for it to remotely be a counter to what I said. Hell is a great threat against people who already believe in it.

I see you are running out of intelligent responses, you've gone to the ridiculous.

I can only work with what you give me. I said Jesus didn't trot out hell to nonbelievers, and you give me verses where there's no indication that the people he was talking to did not believe in hell.

Did your wire to God tell you to be so uncharitable in speculating about my motives? I don't even know how many times I've read the NT. I'm familiar with what Jesus has to say on the matter, which is why I was confident you wouldn't find an example of Jesus threatening people who don't believe in hell, with hell. Here's the thing about your God connection claim: once you've said the omnipotent and omniscient creator of the universe talks to you, it's reasonable to expect better from you than we've been getting, if we take your claim seriously.

I saw your motive very clearly. Whether they believed in hell or not doesn't even come into the discussion, you are dodging my response because you do not know the scriptures that well.

I'm in an excellent position to know without a doubt that you did not. Whether they believed in hell was exactly the point of the discussion. Your response doesn't require any dodging because you did not give any examples of Jesus threatening people who did not believe in hell, with hell. Maybe you should go back and re-read our conversation.

Read John 3:16, 
2nd Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish.

That has nothing to do with an eternal hell being justified.

Just because you do not like thinking about the possibility of hell doesn't mean hell is not justified. And let's say this also, whether hell is justified or not you can't change the fact it is real and a place all the lost will be. The verses has very thing to do with justification, it's not my fault you can't see the reasoning.[/quote]

You are correct, if I did not like thinking about the possibility of hell, it would not mean that jell is not justified. But those verses are not about justifying hell. I know you believe in hell, but I don't. The difference is that I am completely at peace with you believing in hell while you seem compelled to try to convince other people that they're going there if they don't believe you. My friendly advice is that you save hell for after you've convinced me that God talks to you.

It's the atheist here who called these people simple minded goat herders that couldn't understand the simplest of things. Are you contradicting them.

GC

I don't know who 'the atheist here' is, but if they actually said that, I am contradicting it. They may not have been able to figure out the moon reflects the sun's light on their own, but they were certainly capable of understanding the concept if it was explained to them.

Almost all the atheists here especially the hard nosed ones. How do you know that they would have understood and even if they would have it doesn't matter because god is more concerned about the eternal destination of people than give a science lesson.[/quote]

GC
[/quote]

I've noticed you make a lot of claims about 'almost all the atheists here' acting this way or that way or saying this thing or that thing, but never make any effort to back up your claim. That seems to be a pattern with you on a lot of other matters as well.

I expect that adult members of an Iron Age civilization can understand explanations at least as well as any four-year-old. Is there some particular reason that my expectation should be different? What reason would God have for giving them an inaccurate account, one is as good and reasonable as the other from an Iron Age point of view, but only one stands the test of time, and that is not the one God went with.

Why should I not expect God to be accurate and truthful in all things, even trivial (at the time) scientific distinctions? If God had reported the actual state of affairs more accurately, wouldn't apologists be all over it as scientific knowledge the Hebrews had in advance of when they would reasonably have discovered it on their own, which they would take as evidence the Hebrews were in contact with a being that knew more than they did? A lot of people would find that very convincing, though actually the Hebrews could have easily discovered that little tidbit with careful naked eye observations. Anaxagoras is credited with figuring it out before 429 BC. But the Hebrews weren't big into scientific investigation, so they didn't catch the worm on that one.

[Godscreated]

I see you are running out of intelligent responses, you've gone to the ridiculous.

I can only work with what you give me. I said Jesus didn't trot out hell to nonbelievers, and you give me verses where there's no indication that the people he was talking to did not believe in hell.

They were not saved, if they were Jesus wouldn't of needed to say anything about hell. It is the ones who believe in the possibility of hell that fear it, not people who believe like you, or do you?

I saw your motive very clearly. Whether they believed in hell or not doesn't even come into the discussion, you are dodging my response because you do not know the scriptures that well.

I'm in an excellent position to know without a doubt that you did not. Whether they believed in hell was exactly the point of the discussion. Your response doesn't require any dodging because you did not give any examples of Jesus threatening people who did not believe in hell, with hell. Maybe you should go back and re-read our conversation.

I do not need to go back and read it because it doesn't matter whether unbelievers believe in hell or not and how do you know those people believed in hell, secularism wasn't invented by modern man. Jesus message was to the entire world not just to those He was teaching at the time. 

Read John 3:16, 
2nd Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish.

That has nothing to do with an eternal hell being justified.

Just because you do not like thinking about the possibility of hell doesn't mean hell is not justified. And let's say this also, whether hell is justified or not you can't change the fact it is real and a place all the lost will be. The verses has very thing to do with justification, it's not my fault you can't see the reasoning.[/quote]

You are correct, if I did not like thinking about the possibility of hell, it would not mean that jell is not justified. But those verses are not about justifying hell. I know you believe in hell, but I don't. The difference is that I am completely at peace with you believing in hell while you seem compelled to try to convince other people that they're going there if they don't believe you. My friendly advice is that you save hell for after you've convinced me that God talks to you.

Sure they are, there is always two sides and hell is justified because there is a reward. If the unbelievers are not punished for their sins what makes it worth the effort to find salvation. Could it be that I with no doubt of the reality of hell am concerned for you. My reasons for witnessing is not to scare people but to show them that a life with God is worth having, I speak about hell because it is real and it is the alternative of an eternity with God. I've never tried to convince you God speaks to me, I know you do not believe in God so I understand you wouldn't believe me, though I do share that he has spoken to me. You will find it a rare case where I would tell you about what God has said to me because much of it is for me alone, relationships do work that way you know.

It's the atheist here who called these people simple minded goat herders that couldn't understand the simplest of things. Are you contradicting them.

GC

I don't know who 'the atheist here' is, but if they actually said that, I am contradicting it. They may not have been able to figure out the moon reflects the sun's light on their own, but they were certainly capable of understanding the concept if it was explained to them.

Almost all the atheists here especially the hard nosed ones. How do you know that they would have understood and even if they would have it doesn't matter because God is more concerned about the eternal destination of people than give a science lesson.

I've noticed you make a lot of claims about 'almost all the atheists here' acting this way or that way or saying this thing or that thing, but never make any effort to back up your claim. That seems to be a pattern with you on a lot of other matters as well.

You're kidding, right? I only state what is true, and the claims I make are from what atheist have said in post to me, if you want to find out for yourself go back and read all the threads I've been involved in. I'm not going to set on a public forum or any other place and lie about something, first it's wrong and second it would ruin my credibility with those who just visit the sight and never join. They are the main reason I stay here, hoping that God will answer their questions through me, not to my credit but always for God's glory.  

I expect that adult members of an Iron Age civilization can understand explanations at least as well as any four-year-old. Is there some particular reason that my expectation should be different? What reason would God have for giving them an inaccurate account, one is as good and reasonable as the other from an Iron Age point of view, but only one stands the test of time, and that is not the one God went with.

Why should I not expect God to be accurate and truthful in all things, even trivial (at the time) scientific distinctions?

God wasn't interested in science lessons, why can't you understand that. Saving His creation from self destruction has always been His sole purpose with us. We (mankind) screwed up His creation through our free choices and God is going to right things for us through our free choices, His work is absolutely consistent. Also if God had told the Israelites that the moon reflected the light of the sun the rest of the world at that time would not have believed it and thus not even considered the God of the Israelites. He knew that some day we would discover how things worked and us our brains to understand it wasn't necessary for the Israelites to know. You are trying very hard to beat this dead horse. 

If God had reported the actual state of affairs more accurately, wouldn't apologists be all over it as scientific knowledge the Hebrews had in advance of when they would reasonably have discovered it on their own, which they would take as evidence the Hebrews were in contact with a being that knew more than they did? A lot of people would find that very convincing, though actually the Hebrews could have easily discovered that little tidbit with careful naked eye observations. Anaxagoras is credited with figuring it out before 429 BC. But the Hebrews weren't big into scientific investigation, so they didn't catch the worm on that one.

You want one to satisfy your curiosity, then I'll give you one. During the time of Abraham everyone could actually see that there was a limited amount of stars to be seen and had no reason to believe there were more than those stars. As a matter of fact during those days most people slept on the roofs of their homes on summer nights or out on the ground where it was a bit cooler. They had plenty of time to observe the stars and most people knew the night sky better then than they do now. Okay what's the big deal you say, God told Abraham that He would create a nation as innumerable as the stars in the sky, this was never questioned by any Israelite even though they knew that the stars were not innumerable as far as they could tell. So there you are something "very convincing" from God about the universe. Bold above by me.

GC

[Ravenshire]

Bullshit!  Nobody "chooses" to suffer.  If your god created a hell, your god is responsible for all suffering that occurs there.

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I disagree.  You made a conscious decision to preach "God's plan" at us, and as the threat is coming from you, I am treating it exactly as if you had threatened us with some more mundane form of harm.

Own your fucking language.

(Amazing that this entire thread started with a plagiarized, old, made-up tale that has been passed around the internet for decades, posted by a shit-and-run creep.)

Astreja - -    - - brava.  Yes, precisely.  

And if God DID create the earth, and IS actually omniscient . . . (I know, it's a ridiculous stretch already) then God knew, before creating humans, that a hell was going to be necessary.  (I mean, he started with the dinosaurs - but they weren't capable of worship, so that was a failed experiment.  Exterminate.  And that first crop of humans.  Failed experiment. Drown them.) And God knew, before creating humans, that the VAST majority of all humanity would NOT worship him.  Not only that, but until . . . what, the 1800's? . . . most of the people on the planet would not have heard of him or his baby boy who was himself - at all.  (Maybe that should be the 1900's - anybody?)  So he KNEW that he was creating billions of conscious creatures for the SOLE PURPOSE OF TORTURING THEM FOREVER.  Maybe he gets his power from screams?  My Mother used to say "we don't worry about those people.  God knew who would accept him and who would not."  That just makes it worse.  

To think that human beings could even think up THIS level of evil.  This level of sick sadism.  This horrific lack of empathy for their fellow man.
To think that some xtians today wonder why people are leaving the church.  All they have to do is look at the fundie version of God, who will, by their own delighted admission, keep a few loyal humans for pets (just them, the ones who have it RIGHT) while sending others to eternal torture.

(emphasis is mine)

Are you saying gawd is this guy?!?


Not a very omniscient gawd if he didn't even know that laughter has more power!

[Mister Agenda]

I can only work with what you give me. I said Jesus didn't trot out hell to nonbelievers, and you give me verses where there's no indication that the people he was talking to did not believe in hell.

They were not saved, if they were Jesus wouldn't of needed to say anything about hell. It is the ones who believe in the possibility of hell that fear it, not people who believe like you, or do you?

'Not saved' is not the same thing as 'doesn't believe in hell'. He preached almost entirely to Jews, remember? (waits for GC to reply with something that doesn't contradict 'almost entirely')

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I do not need to go back and read it because it doesn't matter whether unbelievers believe in hell or not and how do you know those people believed in hell, secularism wasn't invented by modern man. Jesus message was to the entire world not just to those He was teaching at the time. 

But my point is that he didn't threaten hell to people he was teaching to at the time, who didn't believe in hell. The NT doesn't have any stories about Jesus preaching to secularists. He preached almost entirely to fellow Jews. An eternal place of torment for the damned was a common belief among 1st century Jews. It would be surprising if they didn't believe in hell. YOU are certainly in no position to claim they did not.

---

Sure they are, there is always two sides and hell is justified because there is a reward. If the unbelievers are not punished for their sins what makes it worth the effort to find salvation. Could it be that I with no doubt of the reality of hell am concerned for you. My reasons for witnessing is not to scare people but to show them that a life with God is worth having, I speak about hell because it is real and it is the alternative of an eternity with God. I've never tried to convince you God speaks to me, I know you do not believe in God so I understand you wouldn't believe me, though I do share that he has spoken to me. You will find it a rare case where I would tell you about what God has said to me because much of it is for me alone, relationships do work that way you know.

An eternal reward is also not justified. There is no finite good you can accomplish that merits infinite reward, just at there is no finite evil you can commit that merits infinite punishment. And certainly neither can justify the other. The former amounts to a nice gesture of giving you infinitely more reward than you deserve, while the latter is an infinitely malicious vengeance that is infinitely more punishment than you deserve. Justice is getting what you deserve, getting more or less is not justice, by definition.

If you're concerned for me, start by convincing me the creator and sustainer of the universe is advising you. Every time you misread my motives or use scare tactics, it gives the opposite impression. If you convinced me you've got more going for you than just being another guy ranting on the internet, that would be something at least. It would be the most you could possibly do online. If you seemed to have something more than human feeding you your lines, that would be remarkable. But you don't seem much different than a Muslim doing the same thing. And if you can't be troubled to convince me that God talks to you because I wouldn't believe you, why trouble yourself with the hell business? It's the exact same logic. And you don't do anything at all to make it seem like you have a life that it would be desirable to emulate. If I pray hard enough, I get to be a guy who rants about hell on the internet and thinks he can't be wrong about why people disagree with him? Why would I want to sign up for that?

[Cyberman]

My reasons for witnessing is not to scare people but to show them that a life with God is worth having,

Really? A less generous person than I might say that it's an attempt to make yourself feel superior to everyone else. One of the élite in fact.

[Mister Agenda]

I've noticed you make a lot of claims about 'almost all the atheists here' acting this way or that way or saying this thing or that thing, but never make any effort to back up your claim. That seems to be a pattern with you on a lot of other matters as well.

You're kidding, right? I only state what is true, and the claims I make are from what atheist have said in post to me, if you want to find out for yourself go back and read all the threads I've been involved in. I'm not going to set on a public forum or any other place and lie about something, first it's wrong and second it would ruin my credibility with those who just visit the sight and never join. They are the main reason I stay here, hoping that God will answer their questions through me, not to my credit but always for God's glory. 

If you can't be trouble to back up your claims, I won't trouble myself to believe you. But I don't think you're lying, I just think you're suffering from a martyrdom complex that leads you to interpret any response you get in the worst way you can think of, and exaggerate the frequency. For instance, when you say 'almost all atheists here', I think you mean, at most, the ones who have argued with you, which is far from 'almost all atheists here' on this forum. The ones who argue with you are a self-selected minority who are unlikely to really be representative of the forum atheist population. And I also think if I went over all the threads you ever made, I wouldn't find many posts by atheists here that live down to your claim.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, the justification is equal.

---

Also if God had told the Israelites that the moon reflected the light of the sun the rest of the world at that time would not have believed it and thus not even considered the God of the Israelites. He knew that some day we would discover how things worked and us our brains to understand it wasn't necessary for the Israelites to know. You are trying very hard to beat this dead horse. 

How do you know the rest of the world wouldn't believe it? The rest of the world seems to have been fine with starting to believe it hundreds of years before the time Jesus was supposed to have born. Why were the Greeks so much more credible than the Hebrews? If believability was a concern, why not just not mention that the moon was a source of light? Why not withhold the information rather than give wrong information?

If the horse is so dead, why do you keep trying to save it?

---

You want one to satisfy your curiosity, then I'll give you one. During the time of Abraham everyone could actually see that there was a limited amount of stars to be seen and had no reason to believe there were more than those stars. As a matter of fact during those days most people slept on the roofs of their homes on summer nights or out on the ground where it was a bit cooler. They had plenty of time to observe the stars and most people knew the night sky better then than they do now. Okay what's the big deal you say, God told Abraham that He would create a nation as innumerable as the stars in the sky, this was never questioned by any Israelite even though they knew that the stars were not innumerable as far as they could tell. So there you are something "very convincing" from God about the universe. Bold above by me.

GC

Oh, so mysterious! The Hebrews noticed that they couldn't get a consistent count of the stars that they could see, so it must have taken a superhuman intellect to inform them that they can't enumerate the stars. Since how many stars you can see depends on light conditions, current atmospheric conditions, time of year, strength of vision, age (the older you get the less sensitive your eyes are to faint light), and how long you look (it takes about 30 minutes for your eyes to become dark-adapted enough to maximize the number of stars you can see), you're not going to get the same count night to night and person to person. We still can't say definitively how many stars can be seen in the night sky with the naked eye.

It also probably didn't help that the Hebrews counted planets and meteors as stars.

The only thing the Bible seems to have gotten right about astronomy and the earth's relationship to the universe is in Job, where it is said to 'hang upon nothing'. Figuratively at least, that's true, and not completely trivial to figure out if you don't know that the earth rotates. If the Bible hadn't gotten so much else wrong, I'd be a little bit impressed by that (only a little bit because the only alternative is it resting on something that's an infinite regress of things sitting on things, so it's about 50/50 as a guess). But even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[drfuzzy]

GC Wrote:Almost all the atheists here especially the hard nosed ones. How do you know that they would have understood and even if they would have it doesn't matter because God is more concerned about the eternal destination of people than give a science lesson.

(sorry, pulling out a single quote from all of these long posts - too much trouble.  I just copy-pasted.)

If your gawd was 1/2 as capable of communicating its existence, message, and desires as a 10-year-old on Facebook, then there would be no atheists, not even "hard-nosed" ones. There would be no disagreement on what the "scriptures" say or mean.  The deity would have provided clear evidence of an afterlife - the first ever in human history. There would be no religious divisions.  In fact, there would be only one religion - the only one on Earth that has ever had any real proof of the deity's existence.  And no, old fairy tales in an old book are not "proof".

[Astreja]

They were not saved, if they were Jesus wouldn't of needed to say anything about hell. It is the ones who believe in the possibility of hell that fear it, not people who believe like you, or do you?

Indoctrination via fear is a horrible thing.  It causes long-term psychological damage, and even if one rationally disbelieves in the vile myth of hell, it is difficult to overcome the emotional gut reaction that was instilled by prior brainwashing.

This is why I believe that frightening children and vulnerable adults with tales of hell should be a felony worldwide, punishable with prison time.

[Godscreated]

My reasons for witnessing is not to scare people but to show them that a life with God is worth having,

Really? A less generous person than I might say that it's an attempt to make yourself feel superior to everyone else. One of the élite in fact.

 I live my life as Paul gave the example, I'm the least among you. I really do not care if you believe this or not, God knows and that's all that matters.

GC

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They were not saved, if they were Jesus wouldn't of needed to say anything about hell. It is the ones who believe in the possibility of hell that fear it, not people who believe like you, or do you?

Indoctrination via fear is a horrible thing.  It causes long-term psychological damage, and even if one rationally disbelieves in the vile myth of hell, it is difficult to overcome the emotional gut reaction that was instilled by prior brainwashing.

This is why I believe that frightening children and vulnerable adults with tales of hell should be a felony worldwide, punishable with prison time.

Funny I believe the same about evolution. Indoctrination by any sort is not a good way, let lone fear. Indoctrination means there's something to sale (yes there are Christians who sale Christianity and I do not agree with there tactics), Christianity is not for sale, period.

GC