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What does the (hypothetical) soul take with it?
#1
What does the (hypothetical) soul take with it?
Given that no Christian (with a few exceptions described in a later post by Jenny A) disputes the fact that the physical body is left behind when a person dies and the hypothetical soul goes into the hypothetical afterlife, what I would like to ask Theists is what of the person goes with the 'soul'? Memories, learned behaviours, and I would say all aspects of personality are 'stored' in the neural networks of the brain. If I were to believe in a soul, all it could be for me was the focal point of all this stored information - in life. But there are many degenerative diseases of the brain, and other neural abnormalities, that directly influence personality in life: dementia for instance progressively destroys personality for many years prior to death, and some lucky or unlucky people, depending on how you look at it, are physically unable to feel pain or fear from birth. Therefore if the 'soul' takes someone's existing personality to the 'afterlife' what does it take in the case of dementia? If it takes their personality when they were younger and before the disease, at what arbitrary point? In any case the brain is always in flux and a person is not the same from day to day so how can you find that arbitrary point if it's not the point of death? And as for the people unable to experience pain, if they went as they were, then Hell would be meaningless. It seems to me that the idea of the soul doesn't take into account individual differences in the brain and the only way it could work for everyone was if a brand new mind/body accompanied the 'soul' into the 'afterlife', but if that was the case, how would it be you?
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#2
RE: What does the soul take with it?
What soul?
“The man who can't visualize a horse galloping on a tomato is an idiot.”
~ André Breton
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#3
RE: What does the soul take with it?
Yeah, I dispute both "Soul" and "Afterlife. Prove those first otherwise the rest is a moot point.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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#4
RE: What does the soul take with it?
(April 7, 2015 at 12:51 pm)emjay Wrote: No-one disputes the fact that the physical body is left behind when a person dies and the soul goes into the afterlife, but what I would like to ask Christians is what of the person goes with the soul? Memories, learned behaviours, and I would say all aspects of personality are 'stored' in the neural networks of the brain. If I were to believe in a soul, all it could be for me was the focal point of all this stored information - in life. But there are many degenerative diseases of the brain, and other neural abnormalities, that directly influence personality in life: dementia for instance progressively destroys personality for many years prior to death, and some lucky or unlucky people, depending on how you look at it, are physically unable to feel pain or fear from birth. Therefore  if the soul takes someone's existing personality to the afterlife what does it take in the case of dementia? If it takes their personality when they were younger and before the disease, at what arbitrary point? In any case the brain is always in flux and a person is not the same from day to day so how can you find that arbitrary point if it's not the point of death? And as for the people unable to experience pain, if they went as they were, then Hell would be meaningless. It seems to me that the idea of the soul doesn't take into account individual differences in the brain and the only way it could work for everyone was if a brand new mind/body accompanied the soul into the afterlife, but if that was the case, how would it be you?

Um what do you mean no one disputes this? I most certainly dispute the stupid idea of a soul at all. You are nothing more than your brain in motion, destroy the structure, no structure or to make the motion you call you. No different than if you destroy a car engine, the shell of the car may still be there but it won't be in tact to carry out the function to allow for speed to happen.

You could argue that those who do believe in a soul think they survive their bodies, but there are plenty of atheists that don't buy the idea of a soul, including me.
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#5
RE: What does the soul take with it?
(April 7, 2015 at 12:52 pm)Sionnach Wrote: What soul?

As far as I'm concerned none, but assuming for the sake of argument that there is one.

(April 7, 2015 at 12:56 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(April 7, 2015 at 12:51 pm)emjay Wrote: No-one disputes the fact that the physical body is left behind when a person dies and the soul goes into the afterlife, but what I would like to ask Christians is what of the person goes with the soul? Memories, learned behaviours, and I would say all aspects of personality are 'stored' in the neural networks of the brain. If I were to believe in a soul, all it could be for me was the focal point of all this stored information - in life. But there are many degenerative diseases of the brain, and other neural abnormalities, that directly influence personality in life: dementia for instance progressively destroys personality for many years prior to death, and some lucky or unlucky people, depending on how you look at it, are physically unable to feel pain or fear from birth. Therefore  if the soul takes someone's existing personality to the afterlife what does it take in the case of dementia? If it takes their personality when they were younger and before the disease, at what arbitrary point? In any case the brain is always in flux and a person is not the same from day to day so how can you find that arbitrary point if it's not the point of death? And as for the people unable to experience pain, if they went as they were, then Hell would be meaningless. It seems to me that the idea of the soul doesn't take into account individual differences in the brain and the only way it could work for everyone was if a brand new mind/body accompanied the soul into the afterlife, but if that was the case, how would it be you?

Um what do you mean no one disputes this? I most certainly dispute the stupid idea of a soul at all. You are nothing more than your brain in motion, destroy the structure, no structure or to make the motion you call you. No different than if you destroy a car engine, the shell of the car may still be there but it won't be in tact to carry out the function to allow for speed to happen.

You could argue that those who do believe in a soul think they survive their bodies, but their are plenty of atheists that don't buy the idea of a soul, including me.

I'm not trying to prove the soul, I'm trying to disprove it. I'm playing devil's advocate. And by no-one disputes this I mean no Christian disputes it.
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#6
RE: What does the soul take with it?
(April 7, 2015 at 12:51 pm)emjay Wrote: No-one disputes the fact that the physical body is left behind when a person dies and the soul goes into the afterlife, but what I would like to ask Christians is what of the person goes with the soul?

Actually, there was a time in which many Christians believed that their physical bodies would come with them to heaven. That is the reason the Christian church had such a problem with cremation.   The resurection of Jesus, and the bodies rising out of their graves when Jesus was cruxified are sited by those Christians for that belief.  In Corinthians Paul suggests otherwise.  These links lays out the arguments fairly well. Refiner's Fire  What the Bible Says


Quote:Memories, learned behaviours, and I would say all aspects of personality are 'stored' in the neural networks of the brain. If I were to believe in a soul, all it could be for me was the focal point of all this stored information - in life. But there are many degenerative diseases of the brain, and other neural abnormalities, that directly influence personality in life: dementia for instance progressively destroys personality for many years prior to death, and some lucky or unlucky people, depending on how you look at it, are physically unable to feel pain or fear from birth. Therefore if the soul takes someone's existing personality to the afterlife what does it take in the case of dementia? If it takes their personality when they were younger and before the disease, at what arbitrary point? In any case the brain is always in flux and a person is not the same from day to day so how can you find that arbitrary point if it's not the point of death? And as for the people unable to experience pain, if they went as they were, then Hell would be meaningless. It seems to me that the idea of the soul doesn't take into account individual differences in the brain and the only way it could work for everyone was if a brand new mind/body accompanied the soul into the afterlife, but if that was the case, how would it be you?


Nevertheless these are all good questions.  It's even harder to define it you think about it in terms of reincarnation rather than heaven.  Just what is this soul that's moving into new bodies?
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#7
RE: What does the soul take with it?
(April 7, 2015 at 12:59 pm)emjay Wrote:
(April 7, 2015 at 12:52 pm)Sionnach Wrote: What soul?

As far as I'm concerned none, but assuming for the sake of argument that there is one.


(April 7, 2015 at 12:56 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Um what do you mean no one disputes this? I most certainly dispute the stupid idea of a soul at all. You are nothing more than your brain in motion, destroy the structure, no structure or to make the motion you call you. No different than if you destroy a car engine, the shell of the car may still be there but it won't be in tact to carry out the function to allow for speed to happen.

You could argue that those who do believe in a soul think they survive their bodies, but their are plenty of atheists that don't buy the idea of a soul, including me.

I'm not trying to prove the soul, I'm trying to disprove it. I'm playing devil's advocate. And by no-one disputes this I mean no Christian disputes it.

Thats easy to debunk, but I would not recommend anyone conduct the following experiment. I would not recommend someone blow their brains out with a shotgun then prove they can communicate after that. You also never see anyone communicate when brain dead even if the body is alive. 

Nothing to disprove in reality, it is their own wishful thinking and or ego and or fear of being finite.
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#8
RE: What does the soul take with it?
We might view personality altering conditions such as Alzheimer's and severe head trauma as part of God's judgment upon sinners.

So, for a given 'impaired' soul that winds up in HELL anyhow, it is a moot point whether or not the demons are tormenting a fully cognizant entity.

As long as the pain receptors are functioning and the agony is registering somewhere in the soul, God's will is being done in regards to infinite torments for finite sin.

Additionally, I note, even a severed spine as high as possible on the body will nevertheless leave pain receptors functioning in the mouth and eyes, and on the scalp. Such injuries will not prevent the mortal agonies of the heads being boiled in molten iron from failing to torment the appropriate soul.

Keep in mind, with only a single True Faith amongst the 40,000 schisms of Christianity, the probabilities are VERY, VERY high that virtually all folks subject to the above mentioned maladies are condemned to HELL regardless, so let's not get all pissy about the tiny tiny possibility that anyone actually Saved would be so impaired.
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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#9
RE: What does the soul take with it?
(April 7, 2015 at 1:06 pm)Jenny A Wrote:
(April 7, 2015 at 12:51 pm)emjay Wrote: No-one disputes the fact that the physical body is left behind when a person dies and the soul goes into the afterlife, but what I would like to ask Christians is what of the person goes with the soul?

Actually, there was a time in which many Christians believed that their physical bodies would come with them to heaven. That is the reason the Christian church had such a problem with cremation.   The resurection of Jesus, and the bodies rising out of their graves when Jesus was cruxified are sited by those Christians for that belief.  In Corinthians Paul suggests otherwise.  These links lays out the arguments fairly well. Refiner's Fire  What the Bible Says



Quote:Memories, learned behaviours, and I would say all aspects of personality are 'stored' in the neural networks of the brain. If I were to believe in a soul, all it could be for me was the focal point of all this stored information - in life. But there are many degenerative diseases of the brain, and other neural abnormalities, that directly influence personality in life: dementia for instance progressively destroys personality for many years prior to death, and some lucky or unlucky people, depending on how you look at it, are physically unable to feel pain or fear from birth. Therefore if the soul takes someone's existing personality to the afterlife what does it take in the case of dementia? If it takes their personality when they were younger and before the disease, at what arbitrary point? In any case the brain is always in flux and a person is not the same from day to day so how can you find that arbitrary point if it's not the point of death? And as for the people unable to experience pain, if they went as they were, then Hell would be meaningless. It seems to me that the idea of the soul doesn't take into account individual differences in the brain and the only way it could work for everyone was if a brand new mind/body accompanied the soul into the afterlife, but if that was the case, how would it be you?


Nevertheless these are all good questions.  It's even harder to define it you think about it in terms of reincarnation rather than heaven.  Just what is this soul that's moving into new bodies?

Well the Buddha, to my knowledge, didn't believe in a soul at all and all that came later as religions sprang up from his teachings. Buddhism prior to all that is very logical and scientific, incredible for its day.

Anyway I can't believe what just happened there with my argument going down like a ton of bricks. How am I supposed to get anywhere if even Atheists will tear apart an Atheist argument before it has even been heard by the people it's aimed at?
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#10
RE: What does the soul take with it?
Buddhism was 'logical and scientific' and 'incredible for its day' in what way?
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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