Thoughts on Hell?

[JackRussell]

Wow, is their a single brach of scientific enquiry that GC doesn't suck at. We can add physics to biology for sure.

[Godscreated]

What does "before creation" mean?
Does time exist without it being created?
Is god's existence contingent on the existence of time?

Or is a book written 2000 years ago too primitive to even begin to grasp these questions?... let alone even try to provide an answer.

It means God is omnipresent and that He saw what was going to happen before creation, God hasn't changed just because he created the universe and brought everything into existence. Right time was created, for us not God He is eternal, He has always existed. That old book has the answers to everything we need to know to live in a relationship with God and he will explain it to those who are interested in that relationship. Pretenders need not apply.

GC

What this means is that you don't understand the question.

 What you did is against forum rules you used a post from pocaracas that came after the quote you used of mine. This is as dishonest as it comes and it seems to be a good representation of how low some atheist will go to win kudos from his fellow atheist. It also shows how dumb the who gave you kudos really is. This tactic is beyond shameful it is a deliberate attack upon another.

[I_am_not_mafia]

That's because Santa isn't real. Belief in Santa and God are not even comparable. We have proof Santa doesn't exist and you have no proof God doesn't exist, this alone shoots down your flawed argument.

Where's your proof that Santa doesn't exist? You have none. At most you have anecdotal evidence.

There is far more evidence from scientific research for what your god is not responsible for, making your god at most completely and utterly irrelevant.

[Joods]

As far as sin and hell goes, even if you ignore all the atheists (which isn't fair because there's no proof) what about people who grew up in places where Christianity is not the main religion? As far as they know they're doing right and may even be forced to participate in their religion. Do they really deserve to go to hell? God created all those people knowing he would send them to hell.

All that have heard about Christ and reject Him are atheist, and will be judged for their sin. Those who haven't heard of Christ will come under a judgement God has set up for them, it will have to do with who they are in their hearts. It's not for me to say who deserves hell, scripture tells us that all men deserve hell and the only ones that will escape are those who find themselves in God's grace through Christ. I've said this so many time I would think by now you all would understand that God doesn't send people to hell, they choose and make their hell in a place set aside for them. Understand that not all will suffer as much as others, your life here and now will determine your suffering if you reject Christ. All will suffer greatly, but it will be by each ones life.

Now if Christian god gave the world real proof he exists, by that I mean proving it to everybody, from the beginning to now, there would be no atheists and no other religions. This should be well within his power

Sure God could provide proof of His existence, but then not all would come to God in love and this is what God wants, for us to love Him as He loves us. That's why I keep saying Christianity is a relationship with God. Just saying you believe in Christ doesn't make it so, there are actions that will prove it and the NT is very clear on this. By the way God proved himself to Pharaoh yet He did not believe God was who He said He was.

Again god has refused to give proof and I don't get why this is if he actually exists. I don't believe he does. It's not reasonable to expect people to believe in something when you haven't provided proof, and it's not moral to punish them when they don't believe.

 First of all immoral man has no right saying God is not moral. Second God has warned that the rejection of His Son is on each individual and is their choice. 

It is rather simple if one wants to know God, He has asked that you come to Him through faith and He will give you proof of His existence. Now that faith means one has to admit they are sinful and desire God's forgiveness through Christ and the relationship begins. God did not make it complicated, through Jesus He has simplified things, the only thing you have to sacrifice is your pride, not your life not animals nor live by the Jewish law that is a burden, Christ took care of all that for us.

GC

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And yet you responded, generating an alert and arousing my curiosity as to what barmy thing you had said this time.  *sigh*

 I responded to let you know if hell is your choice then so be it, I can't change what you desire and glad I do not have to live with your choice.

GC

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Your supposed god certainly didn't fax his word down to us, and we certainly cannot accept the word of fallible men who make claims of being divinely inspired.

Then you will receive what you ask for, you will face the God who created this vast universe through spoken word alone and you will be without excuse.

GC

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What does "before creation" mean?
Does time exist without it being created?
Is god's existence contingent on the existence of time?

Or is a book written 2000 years ago too primitive to even begin to grasp these questions?... let alone even try to provide an answer.

It means God is omnipresent and that He saw what was going to happen before creation, God hasn't changed just because he created the universe and brought everything into existence. Right time was created, for us not God He is eternal, He has always existed. That old book has the answers to everything we need to know to live in a relationship with God and he will explain it to those who are interested in that relationship. Pretenders need not apply.

GC

emphasis mine.

What this means is that you don't understand the question.

 What you did is against forum rules you used a post from pocaracas that came after the quote you used of mine. This is as dishonest as it comes and it seems to be a good representation of how low some atheist will go to win kudos from his fellow atheist. It also shows how dumb the who gave you kudos really is. This tactic is beyond shameful it is a deliberate attack upon another.

Actually, he didn't. You responded to Pocaracas in a post that you also responded to others in. So Poca's post didn't come AFTER your response. It came before. It had to in order for you to reply to it. The original post with the relevant section is in blue, above. All Downbeatplumb did was take out the irrelevant sections to address the one section he wanted to comment on. He left everything in order the way you had it. I don't see that as being dishonest. Look for yourself.

[I_am_not_mafia]

 What you did is against forum rules you used a post from pocaracas that came after the quote you used of mine. This is as dishonest as it comes and it seems to be a good representation of how low some atheist will go to win kudos from his fellow atheist. It also shows how dumb the who gave you kudos really is. This tactic is beyond shameful it is a deliberate attack upon another.

Eh wot? Looks like you are falsely accusing downbeatplumb

What does "before creation" mean?
Does time exist without it being created?
Is god's existence contingent on the existence of time?

Or is a book written 2000 years ago too primitive to even begin to grasp these questions?... let alone even try to provide an answer.

It means God is omnipresent and that He saw what was going to happen before creation, God hasn't changed just because he created the universe and brought everything into existence. Right time was created, for us not God He is eternal, He has always existed. That old book has the answers to everything we need to know to live in a relationship with God and he will explain it to those who are interested in that relationship. Pretenders need not apply.

[pocaracas]

What your "kind" fails to understand is that self-deception (aka faith) is not a trustworthy method to arrive at any sort of reliable information.
And knowing that you can deceive yourself of nearly anything, a person who is really desiring to find out how everything works will try to eliminate as many such deceptions as possible.

First things first, I'm not a kind I'm a human being just like you. I'm really tired of being referred to as a kind, it is just another bigoted term atheist like to use to demean Christians. Secondly I haven't deceived myself that is only your opinion which I do not regard as trustworthy. Like I said I do not deceive myself and so there are no deceptions to eliminate.

Yes, you're a human being... a special kind of human being... one who thinks the bible is actually history and trustworthy.

If you're not self-deceived, then you have been deceived by someone else. The most likely culprits would have been your parents or friends as you grew up throughout your childhood and teen years.
That you, as an adult, keep the deception and even try to foster it onto others tells me that you've hit a self-reinforcing loop in the deception.
But, hey.... you know everything about psychology to correctly identify and dismiss this as anything but your own mind working against you.

To be fair, it's not entirely working against you. If most of society prefers to be around people that display such deceptive behavior, then you're fitting right in!

As children, people usually let go of the faith in Santa... That they hold on so strongly to the god deception just shows how powerfully society reinforces that deception.
Society and psychology... understand these and you understand why people believe in gods. Why there are different gods in different parts of the world, why different religions go to war. Sadly, most people can't even glimpse these two disciplines.

That's because Santa isn't real. Belief in Santa and God are not even comparable. We have proof Santa doesn't exist and you have no proof God doesn't exist, this alone shoots down your flawed argument.
What's truly sad is that you refuse to glimpse the creator and savior of the universe. I understand society, and psychology has it's good points but in many cases is severally flawed, neither have cause me to believe or disbelieve, I think clearly for myself. As I said above God will prove His existence to those who seek it, I know He has done that for me.

Really?!
Where's the proof that Santa doesn't exist?

But meh...
I don't refuse to glimpse the creator of the Universe. I'm waiting for that creator to show itself.
I don't understand why you say that creator is also a savior... did some other similar entity want to destroy the Universe, but, thanks to the creator, it failed? How would we know about such a story? And how can I know that is accurate?

When you say "God will prove his existence to those who seek it", all I read is "if I deceive myself into accepting that a god exists, then I will find events correlating with that deceptive fact". This tactic works for most anything that is not easily proven to be wrong... It works for flat-Earthers, for alien abductees, for NDE proponents, Hindus, etc, etc...
Because it works for such things, it cannot be used to ascertain anything about any god. It will only tell you what you already assume to be true. It works within your mind.
But you understand psychology, don't you?...

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It means God is omnipresent and that He saw what was going to happen before creation, God hasn't changed just because he created the universe and brought everything into existence. Right time was created, for us not God He is eternal, He has always existed. That old book has the answers to everything we need to know to live in a relationship with God and he will explain it to those who are interested in that relationship. Pretenders need not apply.

GC

What does it mean to be eternal, in the absence of time?!
What does it mean to create something in the absence of time?!
What does it mean to create time?!
What does "always" mean in the absence of time?!

You need to be careful with the words you use. I know you're not used to think about these things, but you should try.

I think quite clearly, it is you who has no understanding of time and God, so I'll answer your questions that you thought proved I was stupid.

1) The absence of time is eternal.
3) God created time when He created our existence, man needs time for his daily routine.
2) God created time before He created anything else, so time existed before the material universe was created.
4) See #1.

Oh, FFS!!!
1) Do you understand what "eternal" means? Let me take a peek in a dictionary for you:
- lasting or existing forever; without end.

So, existing in all of time. Not in the absence of time! Time is required

2) (did you mix up 2 and 3? ) Look at that sentence. Look at what you wrote: "God created time when He created...". Doesn't "when" imply the existence of a pre-established time scale?
I know it's very tricky to think in terms of "absence of time".... and I know our vocabulary is utterly insufficient for the task. But please try.

3) Same thing! "God created time before He created..." Before?! What does that mean in the absence of time?!

It's very easy to have people go along with your type of reasoning... but I'm sorry, I'm not falling. I understand what you want to say, but I also understand that it can't be so. It's self-contradicting. You can't have an action in the absence of time that you claim to exist as god creates the Universe (and space and time).
It is difficult for a human to think in terms of absence of time, so most people go along with what you said.

This impossibility of action in the absence of time tells us that
- the god you envisage is not real.
- If there is to be a god similar to that, it would have to be contingent on the existence of time, even if it could manipulate time as it pleases. This means that either this god created space and bound it with time to produce our well known space-time, or space was already existing, too. This god could still pre-date the big-bang. There are many models that allow space-time to exist prior to the big-bang. Either way, it looks more like a super-universal alien, than a god. An alien that could, in theory (if not in practice) be subject to probing by science. And, yes, humans would be able to grasp it's nature, even if in a very non-intuitive mathematics-like abstract way.

You are advocating that, god exists in a state where no time exists. And that, somehow, without any time, god manages to generate a region of space and time. And then you claim further that god permeates through all of the created time, knowing all the events that take place within this region it generated.

I advocated no such thing, I said God is eternal and thus needs no time this is something that mortal man can not grasp because we need time. God did not generate a region in space, there was no space before He created the universe. God is eternal and thus lives in all the time, as we understand time, He is fully aware of every second of your life from beginning to end and the same goes for all that come after us. God is capable of this because he is not limited by time, He is omnipresent which means He is living in what we understand as the past, present and future continually.

Again, "eternal" doesn't mean that it "needs no time". That would be instantaneous.
And what I said was that god generated a "region OF space and time". Very different from "region IN space". You see why I keep telling you to be careful with the words you use?

Can you understand that this raises a bunch of questions about the nature of this entity?
And the least important of those is - why the heck would that god care if any particular individual on this blue floating marble believes that it exists or not?

The nature of God can not be fully understood by man so there are man questions we all would like to have the answer to but, God is beyond what we can comprehend. This is why God refers to himself as spirit. What you believe to be the least is the most important to God, pick up a Bible and actually read it to see what it says about who God is. It's difficult to have a discussion with someone that is ignorant of who God is even if you do not believe it's important to understand what is claimed. By the way to clearly answer your question above, God cares because He created us to love.

A spirit is what humans refer to their own minds, if they were independent from their bodies.
Our minds sure feel independent from our bodies, don't they?

Anthropomorphizing the unknown creator of the Universe... Knowing how well you understand psychology, should be completely comprehensible how humans came to that attribution of a spirit to the creator. But you've been deceived into thinking the other way around.

Bonus question for shits and giggles! If he saw what was going to happen before creation, then (within your temporal framework where things can happen without time) anything we do has been seen - it is thus fixed, and no free will really exists. Everything we do, everything we're going to do, has already been seen. It is already known. It is predetermined. Why would such a god have made things in such a way as to make me not believe in it, knowing full well that would be so?

It is fixed only to the One who knows, this does not mean anything was predetermined, it means that God alone knows what will happen. As far as for man nothing is fixed because we can't see pass the present moment. You seem to be the one deluding yourself by believing that foreknowledge is predestination, that isn't even close to being true. God knows your decisions, He has seen all you have chosen to do, He hasn't made you do any of it, that's why God can refer to mans thoughts as foolish. If God had predetermined your life and mine He wouldn't be able to refer to man's decisions and thoughts as foolish. Even though God knows the ones who will never believe till it's to late He still cares enough to offer salvation to them, God gave His Son for all mankind. This is a concept that is impossible for us to fully understand but nevertheless it is true, read the Bible and you can see it is so.

GC

If it is fixed to god, then it is fixed. Period.

[Cyberman]

 What you did is against forum rules you used a post from pocaracas that came after the quote you used of mine. This is as dishonest as it comes and it seems to be a good representation of how low some atheist will go to win kudos from his fellow atheist. It also shows how dumb the who gave you kudos really is. This tactic is beyond shameful it is a deliberate attack upon another.

Actually, he didn't. You responded to Pocaracas in a post that you also responded to others in. So Poca's post didn't come AFTER your response. It came before. It had to in order for you to reply to it. The original post with the relevant section is in blue, above. All Downbeatplumb did was take out the irrelevant sections to address the one section he wanted to comment on. He left everything in order the way you had it. I don't see that as being dishonest. Look for yourself.

This is what happens when certain people go off half-cocked and play moderator, instead of using the proper channels and letting us do our job. It's a textbook illustration of why we have a team instead of just one voice ruling the roost.

[Joods]

Actually, he didn't. You responded to Pocaracas in a post that you also responded to others in. So Poca's post didn't come AFTER your response. It came before. It had to in order for you to reply to it. The original post with the relevant section is in blue, above. All Downbeatplumb did was take out the irrelevant sections to address the one section he wanted to comment on. He left everything in order the way you had it. I don't see that as being dishonest. Look for yourself.

This is what happens when certain people go off half-cocked and play moderator, instead of using the proper channels and letting us do our job. It's a textbook illustration of why we have a team instead of just one voice ruling the roost.

Oh but you know... since he's a theist if he made a report, he would have said that you took the side of an atheist and not done anything. Anyone can clearly see that there was no violation. One doesn't need to be a staff member to see this.

[Astreja]

If it were up to me, GC, every night you would awaken screaming and drenched in cold sweat from a nightmare of seeing yourself or a loved one being tortured by your "loving" god, until those nightmares utterly fucking destroyed your faith.  You disgust me.

You are without a doubt one really sick mined person that i would not trust with a dogs life.

(raises eyebrow and smirks)  Looks like I hit a nerve.

As I said earlier, GC, you disgust me.  You get bent out of shape because I want you to have nightmares that show you the consequences of what you expect to happen to non-believers.

Why won't you apply the same criterion to your god, whom you believe will allow people to suffer for real?  If you wouldn't trust me with a dog, why do you trust your god with anything at all?

No, GC, your faith is just a whited sepulchre, with "fear" crossed out and "love" written in in crayon.  It's only a matter of time now before it all comes tumbling down.

[Mister Agenda]

Evolutionist believe it's criminal to reject evolutionary science, believe me I've heard it many times on this site.

Willful ignorance is not a crime, it's a particularly appalling mistake.

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How do you know what "God" said?

Read the Bible and answer the question for yourself, I haven't the time to argue with what I know you will say. We been through this you want listen so I'm not wasting my time on this.

GC

I've read the Bible cover-to-cover twice, some parts more times than I can remember. I answered the question for myself: no way an omniscient being is behind that Iron Age work of mythology and tradition with a little history sprinkled in. It's got some decent poetry and literature in parts.

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What this means is that you don't understand the question.

 What you did is against forum rules you used a post from pocaracas that came after the quote you used of mine. This is as dishonest as it comes and it seems to be a good representation of how low some atheist will go to win kudos from his fellow atheist. It also shows how dumb the who gave you kudos really is. This tactic is beyond shameful it is a deliberate attack upon another.

Which forum rule is that against? I may need a refresher. How is it dishonest?