Massive controversy between Christians right now: Is Hell eternal punishment?

[Justtristo]

From my reading of the New Testament as far as I know it, the only thing I am confused about is wheter those whose names are not written not in the "book of life" are either destroyed completely or suffer in the "lake of fire" forever.

I thin the reason some evangelicals are reconsider the whole doctrine of eternal punishment is because the whole notion is deeply offensive to many non-christians, because it basically states if you do not confess Jesus as Lord you are going to suffer a truly horrible punishment for all eternity.

[Judas BentHer]

King James Version (KJV)


13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[coffeeveritas]

Hell would have to be eternal, wouldn't it? So as to illicit eternal faithfulness from the believer who fears it, should they transgress and be found unworthy of Heaven.

Well the point of the book (Love Wins) is that it doesn't have to be eternal. Being scared of God is not the point at all; the point is to experience something real here and now, to become a better person, to love people, and to take care of our environment. It's supposed to be about find a new life in the midst of death and chaos. It's supposed to be motivated by what we're passionate about, and a new-found sense of deep love.

What you said is pretty true though, that is what a majority of Christians have been saying for years. Scare tactics to try to shock people into blind obedience of a god and a set of rules that they don't really care about. The basis of life is obligation and duty, not passion. You are told you have to constantly be anxious over whether or not you've sinned. It sucks, I want to personally apologize to anyone who's ever been to a place like that. It's where I grew up, and walking away from it was the best move I've ever made.

This is how god changes his mind about condemning humanity infinitely, for finite errors in their flawed god created human nature. He suffers and dies as a symbol of love, and thereby takes away the worlds sins.
No conditions to that. No, I take away the worlds sins contingent upon these terms and conditions.... Those came later. At first, it was simply god came to die as Jesus to take away the worlds sins!
Later, the scriptures, (thank you Paul), declare the conditions. That as long as someone believes this happened. That god Jesus died to cleanse the world of it's sins, then they are saved from sin.

Yes, that is the consensus view put forward by whatever group of white, western men have been determining theology for the last fifty years. The dirty little secret of the Evangelical church is that there has never been a "traditional" view of hell, and indeed there has never been one, complete set of doctrines that "all Christians" believe. That's a fairy tale. The biggest move in theology in the last half-century has been contextual hermeneutics, which basically means "White men of European descent do not get to decide who God is." So various scholars have completely undermined the idea that there is one, single idea of hell that everyone has to conform to. Actually Rob Bell's idea probably represents a better argument than the traditional crowd.

So yes, the story you cited is the one that people have been hearing for years, but that's the opinion of a group mostly made up of older, conservative, white males. Rob Bells input is "Jesus makes everything right in Love" the end. There are no conditions, no one has to do anything.

Of course, it's all bullshit.
However, there are people who need to feel worthless for being who they are, so as to strive to be worth something more in the eyes of their creator when they're dead, so as to have a goal for living day to day.
Those people are called Christians.

Hmm, good point. Once again the message has been that people have to feel bad about themselves to be Christians. Once again, I grew up in that church. Of course it's completely wrong, we should be happy with ourselves because we are important.

As for having a reason to exist, everyone has one. It may be as simple as "to play video games and get laid" or it might be "to be the richest rich person", but everyone has a story in their head of why they are currently living. There are of course people wrestling with a feeling of purposelessness, but that just goes to show you how disconcerting it is not to have a purpose. The goal of Christians should be to find their own, unique purpose that contributes to goodness in the world. I'm on that track myself, and it feels good to be pursuing a dream I really believe in to help other people.

I can't find any way around the need for hell to be real. Otherwise what are we being saved from? What sort of savior is necessary with no cosmic persecutor?

Well in the book hell is real. You can see hell on earth when you look at what happened in Rwanda. Hell is also a place people go when they die, but it's not forever, and the purpose of hell is to strain out all the bitterness and hatred in people's hearts so they can they go on to eternal happiness. In any case having the hatred strained out of your heart sucks, and living in hell on earth sucks, so need to be saved from both.

---

Has it become such a place? Fuck man I was there not 12 months ago, what happened? All the palefaces die of west nile?

Haha! Yeah, it all depends on where you go. There are still some places where you start seeing rebel flags and you know you've hit klan country. I lived in North Carolina for basically my whole life and for the most part black people and white people got along just fine. One of my friends was engaged to a black guy and nobody thought anything of it. Back in the day interracial marriage would have met with gunfire.

[Judas BentHer]

I'm not aware of that title however, a good book on the subject of inclusive Christianity is that of , "The Gospel of Inclusion: Reaching Beyond Religious Fundamentalism to the True Love of God and Self"

His personal epiphany caused him to be expelled from the very church he helped to build, because his new doctrine was not considered in keeping with the traditionalists, the sectarian bias that his parishioners cleaved to. And as such, he was deemed blasphemous in his ministering and thrown out of his own church.
Now he thrives with a new congregation. One that is open minded to the philosophy that god is too.

However, it must be said that the same divisive attitude among Christians is what divides others of the Abrahamic faiths. Doctrine and it's interpretation. Thereby making god in man's image and likeness as the "one true god" and the closed canon are subject to prejudice, elitist dissection and application and divisiveness amid the community of those sworn to one Christ, one god, while cleaving themselves apart arguing as to who's interpretation of the written word is truly as god wills it to be understood.

[The Grand Nudger]

Let me get this straight. Rwanda is an expression of hell? So the people in Rwanda what..deserve to be there, to weed out the bitterness in their hearts? I call pious bullshit. Borderline bigoted pious bullshit, in fact. Why am I not living in hell on earth, and the Rwandans are. This line of reasoning sounds good at a glance, but it's worlds away from an actual explanation of anything. Are the machinations of the creator again relegated to the misdeeds of men? Is heaven or hell only apparent in situations better attributed to squabbles amongst men. Seriously, seriously weak. Smacks of desperation.

[Judas BentHer]

Christopher Hitchens explains why the afterlife and the concept of a divine plan is both cruel and capricious.

This excerpt is borrowed from the "Is there an afterlife?" debate between Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, David Wolpe and Bradley Shavit Artson, which was recorded in 2011...

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Interesting to note that an eternal hell is not part of basic Jewish beliefs. I had a discussion on line with a rabbi. Apparently, there IS punishment,but it's temporary,like purgatory. The Jews even have list ,giving the time for each sin,but you DO get out eventually.

I think the notion of an eternal hell was invented by Paul,he did a lot of that kind of thing. His biggy was dejewifying Christianity,,which was originally a very Jewish sect.

BUT there is a teensy theological problem: Many Christian theologians of various flavours believe that after the end of days,space and TIME cease to exist. Hence 'eternity' has no meaning..

[coffeeveritas]

Let me get this straight. Rwanda is an expression of hell? So the people in Rwanda what..deserve to be there, to weed out the bitterness in their hearts? I call pious bullshit. Borderline bigoted pious bullshit, in fact. Why am I not living in hell on earth, and the Rwandans are. This line of reasoning sounds good at a glance, but it's worlds away from an actual explanation of anything. Are the machinations of the creator again relegated to the misdeeds of men? Is heaven or hell only apparent in situations better attributed to squabbles amongst men. Seriously, seriously weak. Smacks of desperation.

Whoah, I am not saying that Rwanda serves the literal purpose of hell. I meant that it is an example of people acting like hell. There was no purgative purpose in Rwanda, no one was being judged. It's like when people talk about something bad they say, "it was hell on earth." Rwanda is what happens when people lose all sense of humanity and treat other human beings like animals. Hell on earth is when the darkest parts of mankind come out. The darkness and evil is what has to be addressed in hell, so when I say hell on earth, I mean the kind of stuff that you would see in hell. I definitely don't mean the redemptive purposes thing. People in Rwanda have not been condemned, they didn't do anything wrong (well, the people that were killed certainly didn't). The heaven and hell language that is used in the book refers to whether people are discovering hope and goodness (heaven) or spiraling out of control with hate and misery (hell). Heaven and hell on earth are how we get glimpses of why we need something bigger in our lives. Once again, the concept does not refer to judgement of any kind. Also, I'm just trying to represent Rob Bell's arguments so I'm summarizing arguments that take up like, 40 pages. (It makes more sense in the book).

[KichigaiNeko]

So now the xtians have initiated a "get out of hell free" gambit??? :S

ROMLMFAO!!

[The Grand Nudger]

(It makes more sense in the book).

I hear that a lot from christians. I remain unmoved.