Admitting You're a Sinner

[Mermaid]

Usually a combination of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and slothfulness which are foundations for a host of other less than perfectly moral actions. Are there people who have these under control without God (as in no desire to--not just avoid them)? I'm sure there are, but they would be rare exceptions, not the rule.

On what authority do you make this statement?

[Whateverist]

What on earth was in your hearts before they "changed"............?

For some of us, that's the default state.

Usually a combination of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and slothfulness which are foundations for a host of other less than perfectly moral actions. Are there people who have these under control without God (as in no desire to--not just avoid them)? I'm sure there are, but they would be rare exceptions, not the rule.

To all appearances xtians remain as prone to all those flaws as anyone else.  The big difference I see is that flawed atheists don't feel smugly that they're saved regardless.  An atheist dissatisfied with his life has a reason to get it together now in what for us is the only opportunity there will be.  For those planning on going to the pie in the sky place after death and content to call himself a sinner, why bother?

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Usually a combination of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and slothfulness which are foundations for a host of other less than perfectly moral actions. Are there people who have these under control without God (as in no desire to--not just avoid them)? I'm sure there are, but they would be rare exceptions, not the rule.

On what authority do you make this statement?

a)  position of the stars
b)  tea leaves
c)  scripture
d)  chicken entrails

I added some multiple choice responses (my bolded) to make it easier on Steve, hope you don't mind.

[GrandizerII]

That's a rather dim view of humanity, Steve.

Although, many of your fellow Christians on here exhibit pride, envy, wrath, and slothfulness, so maybe claims of having actually found god aren't all they're cracked up to be. *shrug*

Yep, most of the theists are very similar to us when it comes to general attitude. I don't sense any mysterious godliness about any of them.

And then there's one or two here who are just nasty as hell they make an atheist look like a Christian in comparison.

[SteveII]

Usually a combination of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and slothfulness which are foundations for a host of other less than perfectly moral actions. Are there people who have these under control without God (as in no desire to--not just avoid them)? I'm sure there are, but they would be rare exceptions, not the rule.

On what authority do you make this statement?

47 years of experience with people. Is your position that there are a plenty of people who simply do not struggle with one or more of these things on a regular basis (which was my point)?

[Antares]

If you never sin,
You’re bound to spend
Eternity in:
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
All the cops have wooden legs
And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
The farmers' trees are full of fruit
And the barns are full of hay
Oh I'm bound to go
Where there ain't no snow
Where the rain don't fall
The winds don't blow
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
Ahem...sorry, lol, I don’t believe in sin.

[The Grand Nudger]

Usually a combination of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and slothfulness which are foundations for a host of other less than perfectly moral actions. Are there people who have these under control without God (as in no desire to--not just avoid them)? I'm sure there are, but they would be rare exceptions, not the rule.

Maybe it was just you?  Another question arises.  A person can certainly have a desire to do the right thing to the best of their ability -and- all of the above.  Wouldn't you agree? This must be the state of all christians, at any rate. Filled with both, and I doubt that's a "change" for anyone at all.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

And what do you have against him? Genuinely curious.

he looks like mickey mouse

[Mermaid]

On what authority do you make this statement?

47 years of experience with people. Is your position that there are a plenty of people who simply do not struggle with one or more of these things on a regular basis (which was my point)?

Then your experience is severely lacking. 


No, my position is not that people don't struggle with these on a regular basis. Don't try to twist it. The facts are, it's untrue that most atheists are powerless against these human conditions because they lack religion. Your confident assertion is misinformed and biased at best.

[SteveII]

Usually a combination of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and slothfulness which are foundations for a host of other less than perfectly moral actions. Are there people who have these under control without God (as in no desire to--not just avoid them)? I'm sure there are, but they would be rare exceptions, not the rule.

To all appearances xtians remain as prone to all those flaws as anyone else.  The big difference I see is that flawed atheists don't feel smugly that they're saved regardless.  An atheist dissatisfied with his life has a reason to get it together now in what for us is the only opportunity there will be.  For those planning on going to the pie in the sky place after death and content to call himself a sinner, why bother?

Sure, why wouldn't Christians be prone to those things? It is the human condition. My point is that a Christian should be working (or should want to work) with God on changing his/her heart so that these things are not struggles (not simply avoid the behavior). It seems your point in your last sentence is based on a poor understanding of Christianity, not based on any actual reasons from the belief system itself.

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47 years of experience with people. Is your position that there are a plenty of people who simply do not struggle with one or more of these things on a regular basis (which was my point)?

Then your experience is severely lacking. 

No, my position is not that people don't struggle with these on a regular basis. Don't try to twist it. The facts are, it's untrue that most atheists are powerless against these human conditions because they lack religion. Your confident assertion is misinformed and biased at best.

And you have to read more carefully. Read Khem's post again and my answer to it and tell me where I said atheists are powerless because they lack religion. I specifically further qualified my answer as well by saying "as in no desire to--not just avoid them". I stand by my point, people who can do this without God are rare. 

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Usually a combination of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and slothfulness which are foundations for a host of other less than perfectly moral actions. Are there people who have these under control without God (as in no desire to--not just avoid them)? I'm sure there are, but they would be rare exceptions, not the rule.

Maybe it was just you?  Another question arises.  A person can certainly have a desire to do the right thing to the best of their ability -and- all of the above.  Wouldn't you agree?  This must be the state of all christians, at any rate.  Filled with both, and I doubt that's a "change" for anyone at all.

I would agree. It is not the state of all Christians--it should be the goal of all Christians, which is a very very big difference.

[The Grand Nudger]

Maybe it was just you?  Another question arises.  A person can certainly have a desire to do the right thing to the best of their ability -and- all of the above.  Wouldn't you agree?  This must be the state of all christians, at any rate.  Filled with both, and I doubt that's a "change" for anyone at all.

I would agree. It is not the state of all Christians--it should be the goal of all Christians, which is a very very big difference.

It's hard to tease out what you mean when you say "I agree" - and then disagree.  

Seems like a low goal, what with it being the default state of a great many christians and non-christians, at least. I;m still pretty sure it;s everyone, lol, but you do you. Certainly doesn't sound like an indicator of salvation or the effect of salvation anymore, as you began this bit with.

Just another variation of the "I used to be a trash human being, then I found jesus!"...except you're maintaining that a bunch of folks who found jesus are still trash human beings?