Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist

[LadyForCamus]

Pure revisionism

Which parts do you feel are not represented accurately in my commentary?

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The dumb bitch part is the implication in the narrative (overall, not specifically you in this thread).  The unspoken answer to the 'why didn't she just say no and leave?' is that she's a dumb bitch.  It's why she's being attacked rather than sympathized with.  She needs to be dehumanized to make it okay so people can keep liking Parks and Rec and Master of None.  Again, not necessarily you, but I think this is the crux of the overall narrative.  And another group needs to dehumanize her to justify the actions, because they do the same thing.

Louis CK got verbal consent, I believe, before he pulled out his dick.  But even that wasn't really.  He just knew that put on the spot, they'd probably not stand up to him.  

I just don't believe 'be assertive' is as easy as people make it sound.  How many people don't ask for raises, or cave when asked to work overtime, or don't report sexual harassment, or stay in bad relationships, or get taken advantage of by friends, and on and on and on and on and on.  

Which brings me back to my original point, if you're a passive person, do you deserve what you get when someone takes advantage of you?  It doesn't seem like that should be the case.

Here's the thing, "deserve" isn't the word I would use. Still, being assertive has to be part of your sexual exploration if you're going to get naked with a guy after the first date. At the very least, that's what we need to be teaching girls and women, instead of that they can mutter something about being uncomfortable and that makes them violated. There is another group in this overall narrative that you speak of. We're the people who think that adults are responsible for their sex lives. In my case, I think that 1: bail if the dude is so creepy that you're going to cry for an hour afterward and 2: don't put a guy on blast when you know the whole WORLD will demonize him and you because you had a creepy, unsatisfactory first date. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

This exactly.  I never said he didn’t act like a total jerk, but I don’t think he deserves his entire career in ashes.  Louie CK was abusing his power.  I fail to see how this was an abuse of power in any form.

Edit:

@Pool, absolutely. I was not implying that once a woman engages in any type of sexual activity, that’s consent going forward. That’s not what I meant. Obviously a woman can say no at any time, including in the middle of intercourse.

[GrandizerII]

I don't even know anymore if this is about Aziz Ansari failing to pick up on the cues and not just him deluding himself into thinking he could have the girl cave in and have sex with him if he just kept ignoring her discomfort. It could be a combination of both.

Keep in mind this is Aziz Ansari, not some low functioning person who cant even get up on stage to do comedy or act or write a book about romance.

I'm on the autism spectrum myself, but even I know when to stop when a clear nonverbal "no" is being expressed. And the excerpts Tizheruk posted clearly show she was rejecting his sexual advances from the start, but failing to be assertive due to whatever factors. She may have initially wanted to spend some romantic time with him, but he was clearly not interested in just nice and romantic, and was sticking his fingers repeatedly down her throat without checking if she was ok with that. That's not innocence/naivete anymore. That's, at best, being a creep.

Also, she did clearly state halfway she didn't want to have sex, and yet Aziz still expected to have sex with her that night.

[SaStrike]

Who was the woman? I wouldn't want that happening to a family member or any woman but It's confusing. Why are you hanging out with creepy celebs naked in their apartments? If you know you're going to regret it, rather don't go for the fame and money, and go for a guy you are actually interested in.

And then she's still shy on top of it. I mean not shy enough to go broadcast this to the whole world but shy enough to give blowjobs when she doesn't want to. Crazy. We need to raise better boys and girls. I'll add it to my to do list. Girls stop attention seeking and gold digging, boys stop sexually bullying and being creepy.

[Catholic_Lady]

Just saw this article that someone posted on facebook. Don't agree with everything the author says, but he lays it out there pretty clearly how/why this is NOT assault. He also calls out the conservatives who are happy about this simply because Aziz was a liberal. I'm glad other people out there are seeing that this man is not any sort of sexual predator. 

There were many of us who, from the beginning, warned that the Me Too movement would turn into a witch hunt. I would say it became a witch hunt almost immediately. But whenever the transition occurred, there is little doubt that we have now officially arrived in Salem.

Case in point: the allegations against comedian Aziz Ansari. The accusations from an anonymous woman, published by some website called Babe, have generated many headlines declaring Ansari guilty of “misconduct” or “assault.” Most people will not take the time to read the actual account — and I can hardly blame them, it’s 3,000 words long and filled with graphic details — so, in the minds of the public, Ansari is now simply a sex predator and a rapist. Damage done.

It doesn’t help matters that Ansari is a liberal nincompoop, and had been a supporter of the Me Too crusade, prompting some on the Right to trumpet the allegations, despite their flimsiness, as another example of left wing hypocrisy. Many on the Left have just as eagerly crucified Ansari, hanging him alongside Harvey Weinstein and the rest, because his status as a man overrides his progressive credentials and even his brown skin in the eyes of the Identity Police.

An interesting shift has taken place. We are at a point where a privileged white woman can launch accusations at a brown-skinned Muslim man, and the white woman will be automatically believed. Women, even white women, have ascended to the top of the Left’s sacred Victim Hierarchy. Now, all a woman needs to do is motion toward a man and say, “off with his head,” and that will be the end of him. Or, at least, the end of his career. This is a very dangerous situation, and those conservatives who are enjoying the schadenfreude should think twice about cheering along. The male feminists of Hollywood are the first ones on the chopping block, but it won’t end with them. It never does.

Aziz Ansari may be a hypocrite and perhaps a bit of a creep, but he is not a predator or a sexual assaulter. An honest look at the allegations reveals an awkward sexual encounter, not rape. To save your time and your appetite, I will summarize the rather gross story for you:

The woman, known only as “Grace,” says she first met Ansari at the Emmy Awards in 2017. She approaches him, he blows her off at first, but she ends up leaving with Ansari’s number in her phone anyway. The two exchange “flirtatious” text messages over a number of days and eventually go on a date. Things begin going badly right from the start, Grace says, because Ansari only offers her white wine even though she prefers red. Dinner is rushed and he’s obviously anxious to get her back to his place.

The two start going at it as soon as they arrive in his apartment. They take their clothes off, they perform various sex acts on each other, and Grace willingly goes along with all of it. Ansari makes it clear that he wants to have intercourse, but Grace says she wants to slow down and take it easy. She tells the reader that she didn’t want to be there, she “didn’t want to be engaged in that with him,” and she insists that she was giving off many unmistakable “non-verbal cues,” but she did not communicate any of this to Ansari. Instead, she gets naked and sits on his kitchen counter. And, even after expressing her desire to slow things down, she still winds up performing even more sex acts on him.

Finally, she says definitively that she wants to stop. Ansari relents and suggests that they put their clothes back on and watch some TV. She agrees, but after sitting on the couch for a while, Ansari starts kissing her again. She reacts angrily and states her desire to leave. He calls her an Uber. She texts him the next day and expresses her discomfort with the way things went the night before. He apologizes and says he “misread things in the moment.” Sometime later, after discussing it with her friends, she comes to the conclusion that she was assaulted. Then, after Ansari got publicity from his Golden Globes win, she decides that she needs to talk to the media.

This is not how rape works.

Ansari never forced Grace to do anything. He pursued her; he tried to seduce her, but he did not prevent her from leaving nor did he physically impose himself upon her. She could have exited the situation at any time but she did not. She could have kept her clothes on but she took them off. She could have declined to perform sex acts on him but she performed them anyway. Twice.

She did give “non-verbal cues”: She gave a cue when she got naked in a strange man’s house. She gave a cue when she began kissing him. She gave a cue when she performed oral sex on him. She gave a cue every moment that she stayed there instead of using her perfectly functional legs to get up and leave. Most importantly, she gave a cue when she came back to his apartment in the first place. She does not strike me as a sheltered woman. She must have known that a man does not invite you back to his apartment on a first date because he wants to play Scrabble. And, if you did think Scrabble was on the agenda, you ought to have realized otherwise as soon as he started taking off his pants.

Of course, none of this gives a man license to physically force himself on a woman. But they are cues, signals, and if you’re relying on a man to pick up on your cues, you may want to consider all of the cues you’re actually giving. Your annoyed facial expression may be an “I don’t want to do this” cue, but the fact that you are naked in his living room is a cue of its own. A man, even a reasonable (if not gentlemanly) one, may argue that the latter cue is far more noticeable and compelling than the former. At the very least, they are conflicting. Which means, rather than relying on the guy to solve the puzzle, you may have to resort to verbal communication. “I am not going to do this,” you could say, and then leave.

Grace felt violated after the fact. I don’t blame her for that. I blame her for seeking revenge by publishing intimate details of a clearly consensual encounter, but her feelings of emptiness and vulnerability are perfectly warranted. She was indeed violated, but she was complicit in the violation. That is the nature of casual sex. The two partners violate each other. A man uses a woman’s body for his own selfish ends, and the woman allows it, and reciprocates by using the man for her own purposes. If either wakes up feeling depressed the next day, it’s because they regret participating in such a degrading and humiliating exchange. The regret is real, and can be crushing, but it does not retroactively turn the events of the previous evening into rape. The sex remains what it was when you willingly participated in it: self-centered, dehumanizing, shallow, soulless, and, yes, consensual.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/25874/wal...matt-walsh#

[John V]

I was replying to pool's point on non-verbal communication. In that context, yes, she consented.

Are you sure she consented? 

Are you saying that allowing someone to take off your clothes is consent to have sex?

You're continuing to ignore the context of my comment.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

@lfc, I was actually directing that towards Am, he said "she took off her clothes what does that non verbally communicate" so my point was that even if she agreed in the beginning if there is discomfort in between they should stop. The only problem is everyone is complaining and blaming the chick cos the chick didn't say "no" out loud but everybody is ignoring she didn't say "yes I consent" in the beginning either? It's because people don't actually say "yes I consent" or "no I don't consent" out loud, that'd be weird. I mean, yeah, some chicks will say "stop" but some won't, that doesn't excuse the guy not being able to read that non verbal no when he was so adept at reading the non verbal yes.

[John V]

Remove all context and in a vacuum if someone allows someone else to take off their clothes then it is  not consent to have sex but the context here is obviously different and so is the situation, obviously in this context in that situation taking off their clothes is "non verbal" consent. There's no questioning that. So two things :

1) guy could read the non verbal cues when she gave consent but suddenly became autistic when she gave non verbal cues to stop? Also, didn't you guys read her text reply? "hey had a good time with you" is so textbook I can't believe you guys couldn't see it, guys send that so the girl will reply something positive then he will have insurance if in the future she raises a complaint he can just show the text but instead her reply was negative.
2) just because she consented in the beginning doesn't mean she can't say stop at any time in between

And when she did actually say stop, I believe he did.

[GrandizerII]

Who was  the woman? I wouldn't want that happening to a family member or any woman but It's confusing. Why are you hanging out with creepy celebs naked in their apartments? If you know you're going to regret it, rather don't go for the fame and money, and go for a guy you are actually interested in.

What an insensitive thing to say. Maybe she did like him, and in fact she clearly did like him, and was expecting some nice and romantic time (with perhaps some sex later) that night. And if you take a look at him, you can see he doesn't look creepy, but rather innocent and cute (maybe ... I'm trying to see this from a woman's perspective). So it's not like she expected to end up having such a crappy night with him, and crying when she left.

And yes, she had problems with being assertive at that moment, but why victim blame?

[Catholic_Lady]

I was replying to pool's point on non-verbal communication. In that context, yes, she consented.

Are you sure she consented? 

Are you saying that allowing someone to take off your clothes is consent to have sex?

No. He's saying it's a non verbal cue. 

As the article I posted says, if you're going to rely solely on men picking up your "non verbal cues" to try to figure out whether or not you're wanting to get sexual, you better consider ALL the non verbal cues you're sending. Otherwise, use words.

[SaStrike]

Who was  the woman? I wouldn't want that happening to a family member or any woman but It's confusing. Why are you hanging out with creepy celebs naked in their apartments? If you know you're going to regret it, rather don't go for the fame and money, and go for a guy you are actually interested in.

What an insensitive thing to say. Maybe she did like him, and in fact she clearly did like him, and was expecting some nice and romantic time (with perhaps some sex later) that night. And if you take a look at him, you can see he doesn't look creepy, but rather innocent and cute (maybe ... I'm trying to see this from a woman's perspective). So it's not like she expected to end up having such a crappy night with him, and crying when she left.

And yes, she had problems with being assertive at that moment, but why victim blame?

They're both to blame and I see no victims. Just my opinion. I don't care if his career is damaged he isn't a victim.